Irish immigration and 'working from home'

rock22 · 19-03-2022 4:33pm #1

Not sure if this is allowed or not.

A friend (Irish but resident in Australia) and his Australian wife want to come to Ireland for a short(3-4weeks) holiday. While here, she might need to do some 'work from home' for her Australian employer. But the immigration service website says you are not allowed " Do work (paid or unpaid) of any kind" with a short stay visa

Would that clause bar her from being contacted by her Australian employer ( essentially work related) ?

Or does it only apply to employment for an Irish employer?

To be clear, she has o intention of staying here to seek employment.

Thanks

20-03-2022 3:09pm

Is there any reason why she would inform the Irish authorities about online work during her visit?

amdublin · 20-03-2022 3:34pm

I am not sure what you are asking?

Is she trying to use this clause so as her employer cannot ask her to do work while during her time off from her job? Surely she does not need bit of legalese to say to her employer: "I am out of the office and uncontactable during my time off"

Or is she worried about it from the Irish Authorities perspective??? Why would she even be mentioning to anyone that she is logging on to do a bit of work for her employer, albeit during her time off (her choice I guess!!)

What are you actually asking/saying????

shar01 · 20-03-2022 3:49pm

OP you/her are over thinking this. Who is going to know she's logging on and doing a couple of hours of work?

I logged on to check emails on holiday in Prague. Nobody knew.

If they're staying in a hotel, an unsafe WiFi connection will be more of an issue.

rock22 · 21-03-2022 10:17am

Thanks for the responses

@Dav010 Is there any reason why she would inform the Irish authorities about online work during her visit?

Not particularly. But they would prefer not to do anything illegal.

@amdublin Or is she worried about it from the Irish Authorities perspective??? Yes this. Shew will bring laptop and possibly other work related documents with her. As she is not seeking work ( or residency ) here she gave no thought to it until someone pointed out the information on the Irish immigration website. She assumed that working for her Australian employer would not be a problem but the Irish immigration site seems unequivocal.

I think , just a general worry about doing the right thing.

@shar01 OP you/her are over thinking this. I logged on to check emails on holiday in Prague. Nobody knew. Perhaps , but I get the impression that it will be more than just a few email. She can , at the moment, work from home(in Australia) and her plan , agreed with her employer, is that she will continue to do this work, but remotely in Ireland, while she is here on holiday. At least for part of the time she is here.

What I am getting from the responses is that it is probably against the immigration rules to do what she was intending to do. Would that be correct? I feel that se would rather not come at this time if what she is doing could be illegal. At the moment it is simply that the Irish partner wants to travel to see family after lockdown etc. but she is unable to get away from work at time which suits, hence the need to "work from home". They could postpone until 2023.

Thanks again for all the time to respond.

Is there someone or some service which could give us a definitive answer? i was thinking of going to Citizens Information Bureau or perhaps Gardai.

Thanks

dotsman · 21-03-2022 10:25am

This is much to do about nothing. Of course she can work while on holiday here. The reference to work regarding immigration is, of course, in relation to working for an Irish employer.

The purpose is, as it is with every other country, so immigrants can't just enter the country on a holiday and then decide to stay and work without going through the correct visa/entry process.

What did you think would happen if her employer rang her? That the cops would kick in the door, guns drawn and order her to hang up???

ClaudeVercetti · 21-03-2022 10:30am

The only real concern should be with her employer as they'll have more capabilities to find out where an employee is logging in from. The fact that she's already agreed this with the employer and they're happy with the arrangement means there's no issue at all here.

Realistically Immigration isn't going to spend time and resources going for someone who logged in to do a bit of work over a 3/4 week stay. Add to that the fact that it'd be almost impossible for them to even know.

I've known people who've come back for an extended stay post-lockdown as they couldn't travel during and there wasn't a problem.

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812834#Comment_118812834

>>The reference to work regarding immigration is, of course, in relation to working for an Irish employer.

short stay visit Visas have a no working requirement. it doesn't say you can continue to work for your foreign employer while visiting as a tourist. The chances of anything happening are practically zero but they are still breaching their visa.

dotsman · 21-03-2022 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812861#Comment_118812861

But that's what is implied. That is the purpose of it. That you are not applying for jobs in Ireland. You can do whatever you want on your phone/laptop. It is the same in every country. Why would Ireland care if they are working for their employer or not???

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813151#Comment_118813151

The countries motivations are irrelevant. one of the conditions of a tourist visa is no work of any kind.

Dodge · 21-03-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813151#Comment_118813151

Work isn’t allowed. It doesn’t really matter if you think they should or shouldn’t care. Even golfers coming here to play in the Irish open or singers coming to do concerts have to get specific visas/immigration stamps. It’s the same in pretty much every country (or grouping) too. There’s nothing implied in legislation, it’s clearly stated.

The fact it can’t be policed for a couple of emails or phone calls means in reality there won’t be anyone catching them. So loads will do it anyway

bucketybuck · 21-03-2022 12:05pm

If she doesn't want to come and visit the in-laws then she should just say that, cancelling a holiday because its "illegal" to answer a work email is hilarious.

miezekatze · 21-03-2022 12:06pm

I think the 'no work' thing means no work for an Irish employer. I don't think people get working visas if they come over here on a business trip, wouldn't that be a similar situation? If you go to the US on a business trip you'd usually just get a normal esta too, but you wouldn't be allowed to work over there on that.

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813221#Comment_118813221

if you are coming on business you get the appropriate visa. a tourist visa would not be appropriate.

21-03-2022 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813192#Comment_118813192

Do you think a managing director of a US company here on a golfing holiday with his/her mates doesn’t do meetings from the hotel in the evenings?

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813267#Comment_118813267

do you think that breaches the terms of a tourist visa?

21-03-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813221#Comment_118813221

No work means no work, otherwise staff would be dispatched around the world while still being employed and paid from a cheaper location.

Practically it is unlikely to be an issue, but bringing a laptop and documents with you is a step up on checking your email on your phone say.

The example of Prague is irrelevant, as an Irish person you have the general right to work from anywhere in the EU, an Australian does not have this right.

She could be stopped at the border and challenged as to why she is carrying work documents on a holiday, but it is probably a low risk.

Mrs OBumble · 21-03-2022 12:47pm

If she is carrying a work laptop and documents,and happens to get immigration office Prick, then she may get turned around at the border as at risk of overstaying.

21-03-2022 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813308#Comment_118813308

Nope. Just imagine demanding that anyone here on holiday has to sever all contact with their employer for a couple weeks. Stupid thread is stupid

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813457#Comment_118813457

imagine placing conditions on a visa. the humanity.

21-03-2022 1:17pm

Not even going to engage with this nonsense

rock22 · 21-03-2022 1:47pm

@ohnonotgmail short stay visit Visas have a no working requirement. it doesn't say you can continue to work for your foreign employer while visiting as a tourist. The chances of anything happening are practically zero but they are still breaching their visa.

Yes, this is what I was afraid of. I believe that she will probably not be detected but i think she will be reluctant to breach any terms of her visa.

@Mrs OBumble If she is carrying a work laptop and documents, and happens to get immigration office Prick, then she may get turned around at the border as at risk of overstaying.

That's exactly what she is worried about.

@miezekatze I think the 'no work' thing means no work for an Irish employer.

In fact there doesn't even have to be an employer. Work of any kind is not allowed, even if unpaid.

@[Deleted User] No work means no work, ....Practically it is unlikely to be an issue, but bringing a laptop and documents with you is a step up on checking your email on your phone say.

That is what i am thinking too. Unlikely to be caught but still , technically, breaching tourist visa.

Thanks for all the answers and thoughts. i will pass it on. They may decide to postpone to a time when they are both free of work commitments.

@[Deleted User] Stupid thread is stupid. Not even going to engage with this nonsense

Yes, Please don't.

But it is a serious question for the friends involved.

Thanks again for all advice

21-03-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813490#Comment_118813490

Imagine taking what you are posting seriously.

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813818#Comment_118813818

excuse me? am I imagining a no work condition on tourist visas?

21-03-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813827#Comment_118813827

I think you are imagining someone using their laptop to do some work for their employer at home while here on holiday to be an issue. Like other, I suspect this has more to do with working/earning from a source here in Ireland ala a singer/golfer when they come here.

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813848#Comment_118813848

I initially responded to somebody who claimed that the "working" only referred to working for an irish company. Do you agree with that position?

21-03-2022 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813863#Comment_118813863

And I responded to your humanity comment about placing conditions on a visa, that might include answering emails from your workplace in Australia or doing some work on her laptop while here. You’ve got to be on a wind up, or maybe there has in fact been a spate of deportations of people who answered emails/did some work on their laptops while on holiday.

ohnonotgmail · 21-03-2022 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813899#Comment_118813899

it is not a long thread, try to read it all before responding. I did say

The chances of anything happening are practically zero but they are still breaching their visa.

spurious · 21-03-2022 2:33pm

Get them to ring the Irish embassy in Australia and ask.

Amadan Dubh · 21-03-2022 2:47pm

I think there is a difference between the tax rules that might be applicable and the visa rules, and as far as I'm aware they don't interact for the purpose of the OP. But the holdiay visa rule is covering all work technically, as I understand it.

For the visa requirement, it's probably technically correct that working while here on the holiday visa is not permitted but this is predominantly to stop people coming over on a holiday visa just to get a job here which would of course be off the books and not tax paying. This naturally could be exploited if there was no restriction.

Someone employed abroad but doing some work physically based in Ireland, notwithstanding that the work is conducted legally and online abroad, is not what the visa restriction net is trying to catch I think. That doesn't mean the visa rule still can't be exploited and used as a front to get an employee a physical foothold in Ireland even though they are legally employed abroad and this is why I think the visa rule should still restrict working in Ireland while being employed abroad. For all we know the Australian lady could be conducting work in Ireland with Irish clients and instead of obtaining a work visa, is scoping out the holiday visa regime.

For the tax point, this is more to do with the employer and is a bit irrelevant to the holiday visa point as the employee might have a working visa for Ireland but the company could still be based abroad for tax reasons. This topic would need to consider to what extent their employee is actually employed in the country they claim they are but this would really depend on the work being undertaken by the employee in the context of the overall company operations. I would imagine that for someone genuinely just logging on in Ireland to do a bit of work they would've done back in Australia and nothing more than this, that the company or the employee wouldn't be considered tax resident in Ireland.

Marcusm · 21-03-2022 3:02pm

You’ve clearly never worked in a regulated financial services role where not only are you not supposed to work for a continuous 10 business day period but the employer is required to ensure that your electronic devices cannot access relevant networks during that period.

That said,I agree with the idea that work of this nature SHOULD not be a problem.

dennyk · 21-03-2022 3:14pm

Technically the visitor permission does not allow for work of any kind, even working remotely for a foreign employer. Immigration laws were written before remote working became commonplace and they weren't designed to take that possibility into account. However, it is obviously quite commonplace for foreign short-term visitors these days to occasionally perform work for their employer back home while in a foreign country on holiday. The chances of getting caught are effectively zero; there's no one running around kicking down hotel room doors or raiding coffee shops to catch visitors "illegally" checking their work emails. Unless she starts chatting about her plans to work remotely with an immigration official at the airport, it isn't going to be an issue.

Just think of it like this: she is just here for a visit, like any other tourist, and what she happens to do on her own laptop while visiting here is her own business and no one is going to know or care, and even if she is technically violating the letter of the law, she isn't actually doing anything the law was really intended to prevent.

rock22 · 21-03-2022 5:13pm

Thanks again for all the comments.

I suppose the nightmare scenario is an immigration officer stopping her entering the country. She certainly won't bring attention to herself. But I am not sure she would want to lie if asked directly.

I also agree that , failing the actual entry, she is very unlikely to be caught.

She has not intention of staying beyond the holiday. They both work in Australia, her family is there 9 and she owns property there) . And, as the spouse of an Irish citizen, albeit resident in Australia, she probably has other options if they wanted to return to Ireland permanently.

Mrs OBumble · 21-03-2022 5:37pm

Carry a laptop with an ethernet port is a dumb idea. Carrying a personal one is far safer.

All it takes its one officious immigration official who has a quota to fill, and you get turned around at the border and flagged as an immigration risk forever more.

I know one person who it happened to, and many who it didn't happen to. But the consequences are an absolute PITA.

Dodge · 21-03-2022 8:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813267#Comment_118813267

I’m certain they will. However this is the legal board and I was answering your post about what the legislation ‘implies’. It doesn’t imply anything.

Pointing out something can’t be policed is different to pointing out something is legal.

From my own experience of working in immigration, in your example the managing director will likely have a business stamp (different to a work one) because he won’t be stopped either way and because he can play golf on that too…

21-03-2022 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815713#Comment_118815713

apologies. I thought was the WFH thread, not the legal one. My comment about this being an absolute waste of someone’s time even thinking about is relevant to WFH thread, not the legal one. And in my example, I mean an MD here in holiday with his golfing buddies with no Irish business connection….he’s still here on an ESTA but likely working every night. How would immigration know whether the laptop or iPad my American uncle is carrying when he visits (and logs on) is a work or a personal one? A Lenovo thinkpad for example spans both worlds and no one carries business papers any more. It’s a unpoliceable rule that was never intended for the 21st century working world

I was commenting on a ‘real world’ context rather than a legalistic one.

Dodge · 21-03-2022 9:07pm

Sure, but again, the sole reason for my post (and others) was to point out the law

FWIW, ESTA is only for people travelling to the US from certain countries and they’re far more strict than we are. An Irish business man is very likely to have a business visa. Of course no one is monitoring his calls there either but you try telling US border controls their rules are not fit for purpose

And if a US business man is going to be ‘likely working every night’ then in the real world, they will make sure immigration here know that. He’ll be allowed in. Thats how it actually works in the ‘real world’.

Getting back to the OP, they know the rules and they know no one is checking their calls or laptop. They can make their own mind up

21-03-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815937#Comment_118815937

Good Lord, we are crossing over into the surreal. I have to hold my hand up in that case, I have travelled to the US regularly over the past 20 yrs on tourist visas as I studied/used to live there. And while I was there, I wrote referrals, medical reports, communicated with patients etc. It would never dawn on me, or anyone else I suspect, to consider that as something I should designate as work and necessary to inform US emigration.

I suspect there is even the odd solicitor/attorney who while on holiday either here or the US, might open their laptop to check office correspondence or communicate with a client. Does that mean they need to declare this to US/Irish emigration when applying for a visa? Only in some strange parallel universe, maybe.

dotsman · 21-03-2022 11:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813163#Comment_118813163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813192#Comment_118813192

You are still not understanding the concept of "work" or the purpose of the restriction. It is not some sort of nanny state regulation to ensure that people relax and enjoy themselves while on holiday in Ireland. It is that you cannot come to Ireland on a tourist visa and use it as a back-door in lieu of a work visa. Working for an Irish employer is a no-no. Doing "work" that has nothing to do with any Irish company/business etc has

The example of the golfers and singers is a perfect example. They are coming over to Ireland to work in Ireland - take money from the Irish economy for work they are performing for the Irish economy. While self-employed, they are effectively working for an Irish employer (the concert/tournament promotor). However, if the musician visits Ireland on a holiday and comes up with a new song while on holidays (work) or the golfer goes out for exercises to stay fit (work), then they are not breaching their visa.

If her company has an Irish office and she is coming over to work with/for them, then she does need a work visa. If she is working for an Irish client, then she does need a work visa. But simply responding to her Australian employer while she is on holidays is perfectly ok. And it is utterly stupid to think that there would be a rule to say otherwise, as it would make no sense, be of zero benefit, a nightmare to enforce, cause a lot of headache/confusion and be detrimental to the Irish tourism sector.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814147#Comment_118814147

But that is to do with internal fraud prevention policies of a company and nothing to do with immigration law?

afatbollix · 21-03-2022 11:47pm

I've traveled the world for work and always said I was coming in for meetings. Never an issue.

OP, Don't let them cancel a trip to see family over this, Both families have had a crap 2 years and this will mean a lot to them. Nothing will happen it's phone calls & emails it's not like they are coming in and working for P&O for £2 an hour.

ohnonotgmail · 22-03-2022 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816598#Comment_118816598

according to irish immigration

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/coming-to-visit-ireland/how-to-apply-for-a-short-stay-c-visit-tourist-visa/visit-family-friend-visa/

A short stay ‘C’ visit (family/friend) visa allows you to travel to Ireland for up to 90 days. This visa does not allow you to:

Do work (paid or unpaid) of any kind

any work, paid or unpaid. It really couldn't be clearer.

Marcusm · 22-03-2022 12:26am

immigration Act 2004 generally limits the taking up of “employment …. In the State”. I do not think it could be reasonably construed as prohibiting the carrying out of ancillary functions of a foreign employment while temporarily located in Ireland. SIs may impose additional requirements I guess.

Dodge · 22-03-2022 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816598#Comment_118816598

With respect, I know exactly what the law is and why it is there (and why every country has the same) so you can patronise elsewhere

It simply doesn’t matter how logical or illogical you think immigration law is either.

This thread has run its course for me. The OP knows what the law is on immigration stays here (not visas or working visas as some saying). They also know their friend won’t be stopped taking calls.

Good luck

ohnonotgmail · 22-03-2022 12:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816864#Comment_118816864

well except where the person is here on a tourist visa that specifically prohibits doing any work, unpaid or otherwise.

dotsman · 22-03-2022 1:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816737#Comment_118816737

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816921#Comment_118816921

Not sure if you are actually trolling here or just have a block for some reason that you can't see the wood for the trees.

rock22 · 22-03-2022 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817094#Comment_118817094

Why such a comment??

As the OP i find those, like @ohnonotgmail and others who have explained the law to be the most helpful in answering my question.

You attempt to interpret what the legislators meant when they passed the law is of no real benefit to me

Thanks to those who have answered the legal aspects of this for me. As @Dodge says, i now know the law and the couple can make up their own mind.

thanks again

ohnonotgmail · 22-03-2022 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817094#Comment_118817094

I'm taking my posts from the department of immigration website. you are taking yours from your a...

amdublin · 22-03-2022 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814255#Comment_118814255

^^^ This

dotsman · 22-03-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817364#Comment_118817364

But they haven't explained the law to you. Only added their own strange interpretation of some text on a website (not a law) which confuses things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817408#Comment_118817408

Can you point me to the the actual law and not some poorly worded text on a website?

mary 2021 · 22-03-2022 8:08pm

Shes coming half way around the world she should not be expected to work but since the time is so short i would do my bit of work in the time frame and enjoy my holiday, the amount of fear in folk these days is very sad. Do your work get paid in Aussie land and spent the pennies in ireland whats not to like !

ohnonotgmail · 22-03-2022 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820383#Comment_118820383

poorly worded? can you point to the legislation then seeing as you think the department of immigration website is poorly worded. you have obviously compared the two in great detail so pointing to the legislation should be straightforward for you.

Irish immigration and 'working from home'

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