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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    We are talking about people who are trans GENDER.

    Gender has everything to do with what I am talking about. I never once said any human being changes sex.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    There is 0 about gender in the course for sports psychology you've linked to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo



    Re: Point 1, you said that with the intervention of medical science people can change gender. What does medical science have to do with gender? What medical/scientific test can you do on a person to gauge their gender? If I die tomorrow, how would the coroner know my gender or how could he determine it based on medical science??

    So you agree, it is impossible for a human being to change their sex.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The top percentile of women athletes would beat the average man hands down.


    Since when are athletes 'average'?

    Now just put these two separate points together and you arrive at the problem. Whether or not the top percentile of women athletes would beat the average man is incredibly irrelevant. We are talking precisely about the top few percentiles in each sex.

    As to your ludicrous point about Katie Taylor - men in the same weight class as women have a ~120% advantage in punching power. She would lose to quite a significant proportion of amateur male boxers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    That I get accused of shifting goals posts is ironic given I am being told that men are bigger/faster/stronger than women. I respond by saying that is not necessarily a given. That it is not the case any man would beat any woman in any sport simply because he is a man.

    Then it shifts to the top elite male athletes would beat the top female athletes as if this is some startling revelation. The elephant in the room that none of the men will win side of the debate want to acknowledge is that transgender women the very hormone that makes men grow 'bigger/faster/stronger' is significantly reduced.

    Transgender women athletes simply do nor have the same amount of testosterone as cis male athletes - and if they did they would not be allowed to compete.

    Would a top male athlete on testosterone reducing drugs beat a top female athlete every single time?

    That is the question.

    So far there is not enough data to say they will - never mind to bemoan the death of women's sports.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Again.

    I never mentioned people changing sex.

    But to indulge you - do you think a coroner would fail to notice gender reassignment surgery?

    Or wonder why a person might have had a double mastectomy?

    Run blood tests?

    I hope you never end up under the knife of such a coroner as they seems rather incompetent tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,808 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    You didn't answer the one question I put to you.

    Do you think women should be allowed to compete with men in combat sports such as boxing or MMA?

    If we are going to blur the physical differences between men and women, then why have separate categories. Just have one, and if we have that, men will be winning 99.999% of competitions. It seems some want to have their religious cake and eat it too.

    Oh and nice strawmanning too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I think if a fully grown adult wants to compete against another fully grown adult that is their prerogative.

    Don't mean I think it's a good idea.

    Now answer me a question Mark - do you think Transgender women are exactly the same as cis men in every particular?

    Would a transgender woman athlete on testosterone reducing drugs perform as if she wasn't taking the drugs?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    The original question was about other species changing sex, not gender. You replied with a list of species that can change their biological sex and claimed that "You could have just googled it. But that wouldn't have confirmed your bias."

    What bias were you talking about? You've admitted that humans cannot change their biological sex like the clownfish etc so how would that have not have 'confirmed their bias'.

    If someone hasn't transitioned yet, a John Doe, washes up on the shore. A few days earlier had filled in his GRC1 form and gotten his certificate in the post claiming he was now a woman. What possible medical science can determine his gender?? You are the one who made the medical science claim, now back it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,808 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I think if a fully grown adult wants to compete against another fully grown adult that is their prerogative.

    Free will and all but..

    Don't mean I think it's a good idea.

    Curious. Why not?

    Now answer me a question Mark - do you think Transgender women are exactly the same as cis men in every particular?

    Depends

    Would a transgender woman athlete on testosterone reducing drugs perform as if she wasn't taking the drugs?

    Depends



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I’m not sure if you’re being deliberately obtuse, but gender plays a large part in sports psychology, and psychology itself is a science. I figured you might be asking the question as you genuinely didn’t know, not that it was some sort of stupid ‘gotcha!’ moment. Sports science is a huge field of study, and psychology or the mental element of sports science is as much a part of it as the physical element, and gender is a fundamental element of the psychological element -

    https://www.apa.org/education-career/guide/science

    http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/sports-psychology/multiculturalism-in-sport/gender-in-sport/

    Were it not for the influence of psychology and mental fitness on sports performance, the outcomes of any competition would be far easier to predict if it were based upon purely physical, anatomical or physiological attributes alone.

    That’s where gender comes into the equation, and where discrimination against athletes on the basis of their gender undoubtedly has a negative impact upon their ability to perform in competition. The same pressure isn’t there in an exhibition match, but that’s the anecdotal evidence some people will use to make their arguments as to why women should not be permitted to participate with men in sports.

    Nobody is arguing with the idea that men are generally speaking bigger/stronger/faster than women, the men who win are also bigger/stronger/faster than other men, and yet they are not excluded from competition because of their biological advantages. Jonah Lomu for example was a gift to the sport of rugby, but a curse if you went up against him in competition, just ask Will Carling 😂

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/i-am-hoping-not-to-come-across-him-again-he-s-a-freak-and-the-sooner-he-goes-away-the-better-1587270.html?amp


    Was Jonah Lomu excluded from participating in sport because he was perceived by other people as a danger to their health? Of course not, he was celebrated, and is still remembered as a legend of the sport.

    It’s for these reasons that classifications, classes and divisions already exist in sports, for the safety of the participants as well as everything else. Nobody is arguing that anyone should be entitled to win, just that they shouldn’t be excluded from participating on the basis of gender. All the other means of divisions, classifications and classes could still apply. That’s why it’s a nothing more than a specious argument to suggest anyone is arguing that participants should be forced to participate in a division or class or classification which they don’t want to, because nobody is forced to do that. Athletes compete in events where they feel they can compete, with the knowledge that they are not guaranteed a win, and the belief that they can.

    There are all sorts of studies into what contributes to this belief, and the influence of gender is only one part of it. More interesting and something which is being further studied is the influence of religion on athletic performance, and there are ongoing studies into this phenomenon too which is part of the study of psychology as it relates to sports science and performance -

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13575702.amp


    It could only be wilful ignorance to ignore the influence of gender in relation to performance in competition, whether it’s sports or anything else, and I know for a fact you’re not that dim. You may not be prepared to acknowledge the influence of gender in sports and athletic performance, but many more sports scientists are intrigued by the idea and in particular the participation of people who are transgender in sports.

    The only problem is that there simply isn’t sufficient data to study the influence of gender in transgender athletes because there aren’t that many openly transgender athletes competing at elite levels in sports, due to policies which inhibit their participation, ironically because they don’t fit with societal norms. If that’s the argument they’re going with to inhibit transgender athletes participation in sports, I’m sure they’re also acutely aware that elite athletes, by virtue of their being elite athletes, don’t fit with societal norms - being an elite athlete is what makes them exceptional, well outside of societal norms already!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    A. Lomu was a man participating against other men.

    B. You trying to link psychology and gender is a nonsense.

    C. Not every post has to be an essay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    1. So what? That doesn’t answer the question.
    2. I’m not trying to link them, they are linked, as psychology includes the study of gender.
    3. Better?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I answered the question the poster asked. It's hardly my fault if they didn't specify they meant gender.

    You asked me if I thought humans can change sex, I replied that I started this thread which is about people changing gender, and that is what I am discussing. Hardly my fault if you don't like the actual topic and want it to be about something else.

    Can biological natal sex be changed - no.

    Can gender - yes.

    Is biological natal sex as cut and dried a binary as male or female - no.


    And no - I am not pandering to your increasingly out there scenarios.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,236 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Does medical science define gender? If not, how can it change gender?


    Gender is no longer defined scientifically, thats the crux of the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe



    I answered your question. I believe it is up to the individuals involved.

    Might not be a good idea as at times people can have an over inflated sense of their own abilities. It's quite possible some bloke thinks he could beat a top ranked woman because he is a man and ends up getting seriously hurt.


    'Depends' - what does that mean? Either testosterone has an effect on the human body or it doesn't.

    Studies say it does.

    If testosterone has no effect on an athlete's performance why are athletes like Caster Semenya being penalised for having naturally occurring higher levels than the average woman?


    They literally changed the rules to stop her competing in certain events unless she takes hormone reducing drugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    World Health Organisation has no problem defining gender.

    The crux is people getting biological sex and gender mixed up - acting as if they are the same thing. Immutable across all eras and civilisations.

    Yet, across time and place there have been societies who had no issue with recognising that biological natal sex and gender do not always align.

    The crux is there has always been people who do not identify as the biological sex they were born. That will never change. In some societies they are accepted and in other's punished.

    Which are we?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Medical science uses a working definition of gender, that evolves with greater understanding of gender -

    Importantly, the committee emphasized that neither the health of women nor men is simply a product of biology but is also influenced by sociocultural and psychological experience. To differentiate between these broad areas of investigation, the members created working definitions of “sex” — when referring to biology — and “gender” — when referring to self-representation influenced by social, cultural, and personal experience. 

    The committee advised that scientists use these definitions in the following ways:

    In the study of human subjects, the term sex should be used as a classification, generally as male or female, according to the reproductive organs and functions that derive from the chromosomal complement [generally XX for female and XY for male].

    In the study of human subjects, the term gender should be used to refer to a person's self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individual's gender presentation.

    In most studies of nonhuman animals, the term sex should be used.

    These working definitions were a good start in recognizing the value of studying sex and gender and their interactions, yet they were always meant to evolve. Now, we are learning more about ourselves and so must adapt our terminology to be inclusive, respectful, and more accurate.

    https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/

    Defining gender isn’t without it’s problems though, but it’s more the implications of how gender is defined is only one part of a much larger problem within the medical and scientific domains, largely influenced in Western medicine and science by the works of some rather unscrupulous characters based upon their own personal beliefs of what constitutes gender. People such as John Money for example, and the experiments he conducted in order to support his theories -

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money


    The evidence didn’t support his theories, but that didn’t stop him, nor did it stop the people who were later influenced by his theories, and that was just one individuals influence on scientific and medical developments in the study of sex, gender and psychology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Back in 2015 I remember reading US Sports fans thinking that Hope Solo could play in the MLS and that the US Women's National Team would beat a lower division English team like Leyton Orient.

    This was before the Dallas U-15 result became public.

    A decent Irish Semi-Pro side would run double figures on the US Women's National Team.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,236 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    "The committee advised that scientists..."

    Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and surmise that scientists don't need to be advised of which terms to use when terms are factual and scientific.


    The current redefinition of gender renders the term useless as it is subject to change without any factual definition. Might as well base it on tea leaves.


    "Now, we are learning more about ourselves and so must adapt our terminology to be inclusive, respectful, and more accurate."

    I somehow feel that accuracy and scientific fact are taking a backseat to inclusivity and respect.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Could they do it after taking hormone reducing drugs for at least 2 years?

    Because that is what this thread is about.

    It is not about Men Vs Women.

    It is about whether or not reducing testosterone for a sustained period of time significantly affects an athletes performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,236 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    "As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

    By this definition, I and the many others who dont believe in people being able to define their own gender have just as much right to say that gender = sex. My society follows my beliefs, what gives you the right to say that my opinion is wrong and yours is right?


    Excellent strawman talking about some societies punishing people though!


    In pretty much every biological, factual definition there will be outliers, this isnt maths, they dont disprove anything.

    I get the feeling that people such as yourself wont be happy until everything is a spectrum and a basic conversation becomes a tedious exercise of navigating the current wave of nonsense pronouns....all in the name of inclusivity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,236 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Does it undo all the benefits that were gained during puberty? Do we allow athletes to "drug up" for 10 years of training as long as they are clean for 2 years before competing?


    If its not about Men Vs Women, why are you talking about testosterone levels? Please dont hide behind tiny samples of men with low levels and women with high levels in your answer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You might as well sure. In the meantime, both science and medicine have developed guidelines based upon ethics which do inhibit how far they are permitted to go in conducting scientific and medical research, precisely because of the unethical behaviour and malpractice of a few scientists and medical professionals who don’t adhere to the guidelines and standards of their profession when dealing with human beings -

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574464/

    It’s for this reason you won’t ever see the kind of experiments on humans conducted by the likes of people like John Money and the few other people who subjected people to abhorrent abuse and torture in the pursuit of furthering their own personal beliefs -

    The psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. The academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer's realization that he was not a girl crystallized between the ages of 9 and 11 years[2]and he transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. At age 38, he committed suicide after suffering severe depression.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    If you live in Ireland then your society, and legal system, recognises the right of people to self determine which gender they identify as.

    It's you who are out of step, not me.


    You wishing to claim sex = gender when all of the experts say it does not is frankly Trumpian in it's desire to place equal credence on expert opinion based on years of study research and some randomer's opinion based on gut feeling and stuff they saw on the internet.

    I don't give a monkey's about your feeling about what 'people like me' do or do not want - those feeling have no basis in reality. They are just your personal emotion driven opinion. You do not know me. You have no idea what kind of 'people' I am. But if all you have by way of argument is to comment on 'people like me' that shows the pugnacity of your position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Yes, you answered his question. You then got smarmy about these examples not confirming his bias. What bias was that, since you brought it up??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe



    If hormones levels have no baring why are female athletes tested?

    And this still isn't about Men vs Women.

    It's about Transgender women competing against cis women.

    Which, despite the opinion of many here, is not the same thing as cis Men Vs cis Women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    That Katie Taylor argument is such a strawman.

    I, a man, who is unfit and has no training, would get destroyed by Katie Taylor (undisputed world champion) in a boxing match.

    Katie Taylor would be knocked out by every male professional fighter in her weight class. The male champions would all do it within two rounds, likely in the first.

    The same as saying that Thomas came 8th in the last race, so clearly doesn't have physical advantages, but fails to consider that distance racing is Thomas' specialty, not sprints.

    Selemon Barega is unlikely to beat Elaine Thompson-Herah in the 100m sprint, but was more than two minutes quicker than Sifan Hassan over 10,000m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Men have denser bone density, are taller, have more lean muscle mass, have stronger grip strength.

    "There's absolutely no question in my mind that trans women will maintain strength advantages over cis women, even after hormone therapy. That's based on my clinical experience, rather than published data, but I would say there's zero doubt in my mind." - Sports Physicist, Trans athlete, author and researcher Joanna Harper



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ah come on now. Some people here take issue with literally everything and anything trans related.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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