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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gender discombobulation is a very very niche thing, and always will be.

    Yeah I think thats pretty much solely Pantis Niche 💃

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The same as saying that Thomas came 8th in the last race, so clearly doesn't have physical advantages, but fails to consider that distance racing is Thomas' specialty, not sprints.


    I dunno that it’s as simple as that either tbh. On paper at least, Thomas’ PB in the 100m still wasn’t as fast as the winner, Gretchen Walsh, who finished in a time of 46:05. Thomas’ best time was 47:37, but they completed the 100m event in 48:18.

    I don’t think distance racing is their specialty either tbh, because they’re well outside of Katie Ledecky’s record over the same 1650m distance of 15:03:92. Thomas’ best time over 1650m is 15:59:71. If you’ll pardon the pun - they’re not even at the races over what you consider is their specialty; they’re ranked 11th.

    Ledecky on the other hand, is something of a phenomenon, and her time in the 1,650m freestyle event could be enough to qualify her to race in the men’s event. The record in the men’s event is 14:22:41. It’s just impossible to do any sort of a real calculation because there are so many factors involved, not the least of which is the opportunities to participate in any sport in the first place, let alone get to the level where a person is good enough to compete in local, national and international competition, let alone being given the opportunity to ascend to the level of elite status in their chosen sport.


    Sources:

    https://sports.yahoo.com/transgender-swimmer-makes-final-bid-182804467.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA3UyYDmY7MWBHvdJWblixCnsEt8AMkKfX51cghPbHAshHstkNUsYUcoNCO5WNlBnvSee3zl_D9-U39hGqlcSf2qBydhH79bYjlco3YFUSo-KF4xoHRTtDKnztWp6TXwqh-oZ7i-PkcU1R_fOmdvzbmTf5NtnCXlaIWULd2PwNuE

    https://swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-opts-for-100-free-over-1650-free-for-ncaa-championships/

    https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/18100726/katie-ledecky-shatters-1650-freestyle-ncaa-record-20-seconds-sunday

    https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/ncaa-swimming-flashback-the-greatest-college-distance-race-ever/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    We are not actually arguing at cross purposes.

    I am saying there are more variables involved in being an elite athlete than a basic 'bigger/faster/stronger' formula.

    But this basic formula is the one being used to justify banning transgender women from competing against cis women on the spurious grounds it gives transwomen an unfair advantage, while ignoring a whole host of other important factors such as fitness, stamina, co-ordination, mental preparedness - none of which are dependent on either biological sex or gender.


    The fact is not every man is bigger/faster/stronger then every woman as has been claimed.

    The strawman is saying xxxx elite cis male athlete would beat xxxx cis female athlete in this specific sport that is based on strength/speed/size because no one is arguing otherwise.

    This thread has literally nothing to do with the abilities of elite cis male athletes who are not taking any kind of drugs but yet they keep being introduced to the discussion.

    This thread is about whether or not it is a given, as some claim, that transgender women will always beat cis women which will lead to the terminal decline of women's sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    And those things are important for every single sport are they?

    Every. Single. One.?


    Leaving aside the inconvenient mention in the piece you quoted that there is no published data to confirm this view. It may be correct, it may not. Just like Freud's conclusions based on his clinical experience of treating mostly middle aged, middle-class Viennese women might, or might not, have held true for all woman. (they didn't but were applied for a very long time)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,673 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    This thread is about whether or not it is a given, as some claim, that transgender women will always beat cis women which will lead to the terminal decline of women's sport.

    no, its not. that's where you've gone wrong, and keep going wrong. It's about whether they have an unfair advantage, in general, because of their biological sex. And they do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It has a lot to do too with the idea of women participating in what are traditionally competitions reserved for men, and the idea of women taking some men’s places in competition, similar to the way in which an athlete who placed 17th in the qualifying stages claims that Lia Thomas is responsible for taking her position.

    Undoubtedly there will be some people who would not be at all pleased to see women competing with men in competitions which were traditionally only open to men, and would not be shy in making sure the athletes in question were aware that it was because of them that men are losing out, similar to the way there are some people who make complaints about women in the workplace and their taking of positions from men in arenas which were traditionally male dominated roles.

    They don’t want to see women in roles which were traditionally the preserve of men, and they don’t want to see people who are transgender in any role, because that would violate their ideas of societal norms.

    Allusions to science and biology are only a smokescreen for their nonsense, while arguing that their rights are being violated by other groups in society being recognised as entitled to equal protection and status in law and equal participation in society to influence legislation which applies to everyone in society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    Its a simple fix.

    Rename Men's and Women's sports to Male's and Female's sports. It removes the gender / social construct from the equation.

    It would then be comparable in a like-for-like of physicality.

    Otherwise its akin to having a 250lbs heavy weight boxer paired off against a 150lbs boxer. That would be absolutely insane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    As the OP I have a pretty good idea what this thread is about thanks.

    You might want to make it about something else - or more likely rehash the same old guff about changing rooms - but feel free to start yet another thread about that. Either way, this will be my last response to you unless you post about the topic of this thread.

    This thread is about whether or not transgender athletes - in particular trans women - have an advantage over cis athletes - in particular cis women, and if such an advantage (if it exists) would influence the outcome of any competitive sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    We had a situation on Saturday where a 1.74m/84 kg rugby player faced off against a 1.95/115kg rugby player.

    It seems that size difference doesn't always matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,673 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    well now, that's an awful lot different to

    transgender women will always beat cis women




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Just out of curiosity, how many keyboards do you go through a week?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,673 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby

    Why? Because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates

    • Significantly greater strength (between 50% and 60% percent by adulthood, with relatively greater upper body strength)
    • Significant speed advantages (between 10% and 15% over various durations)
    • Greater capacity to produce force/power (advantages  of between 30% and 40% in explosive movement capabilities)
    • Strength-to-weight and power-to­ weight advantages (even after adjusting for mass, height and similar level of performance (elite, untrained etc), males have a 30-40% strength advantage)

    Transgender men may play men's rugby having provided confirmation of physical ability.

    Transgender men need to provide confirmation of physical ability to ensure that they are not putting themselves at an unacceptable level of risk when playing against men.

    • Allowing transgender men to play men's rugby does not increase the risk of injury to teammates or opposition players
    • Transgender men must confirm they understand any increased risk to themselves




  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    Not the same thing though. That's a sport comprised of teams of males vrs males. Each player has a counterpart on the other team which is of comparable physicality for each position.

    If it was a match with just one player on each team, then I'd be with you on that. But then weight classes would be introduced as it would be insane to have a much larger/stronger person pitted against much smaller weaker person.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Thats an incredibly idiotic statement. You either know nothing about sport or human anatomy but that's just ridiculous statement


    There will be a few 90kg women playing next week, if you think they could compete against a 115kg kg man in rugby and not get seriously injured you're simply not at the races at all


    A 90kg man and a 90kg woman, at an elite level sport that requires strength and speed are simply not the same. You simply have no argument there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    It's still a keyboard or are you comfortable with differentiating between on screen and off screen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭Mrcaramelchoc


    They should not be allowed entry. There should be a race or event s for transgender people? only. See how well they do then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,658 ✭✭✭jackboy


    As I said before there is no need. Mens competition should be changed to open entry. All inclusive, arguments about discrimination would be over for good. Womens events would be changed to biological females.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,123 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s wildly off-topic, but given your username I can understand your interest in keyboard mechanics - makes no odds to be really other than the difference between haptic and tactile feedback, motors as opposed to switches and springs - I don’t get the obsession with mechanical keyboards tbh.

    Far more influential in my workflow though is the position of my secondary monitor for work, went back to the office last month and they had bolted my monitor to the right hand side of my desk. ‘Twas embarrassing having to explain that I needed the monitor on the left within my peripheral view as I’m blind in my right eye. Until then I’d been able to manage fine, it was just when they changed the layout of the office I ran into a bit of bother 😂



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't think that would be workable due to drug testing. You'd have to allow certain people to take body altering substances. Pandora's box right there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I stopped at widely off topic. I could ne er compete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,658 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Same with all other proposals. Not perfect but as close as possible.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm still a fan of only allow men to compete in men's events and women to compete in women's events.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,658 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Whatever happens it looks like those days are over. I cannot see separate trans events being accepted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    How very dishonest of you to edit my words to present a fake quote that makes it seem as if I had expressed that opinion.

    Do you think people here are so foolish they cannot read my actual words as I wrote them and see that what you are insidiously trying to attribute to me is, in fact, the default argument of the side you represent?


    Such a shame when people cannot debate ethically but need to employ fake statistics, made up quotes, and false attributions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Now go see how already the RFU are looking at tweeking that to allow transgender women to play under certain circumstances.

    You are a bit behind the times when it comes to current thinking among the various rugby unions I'm afraid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,673 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    This thread is about whether or not it is a given, as some claim, that transgender women will always beat cis women which will lead to the terminal decline of women's sport.


    Would a top male athlete on testosterone reducing drugs beat a top female athlete every single time?

    That is the question.

    those are your words, just from today



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I could say I'll bet my International and Provincial caps against yours any day in a who knows exactly what it feels like to be hit on a rugby pitch during a top level match by someone who is bigger and stronger but I don't need to stoop to arguing from a position of authority because no-one is suggesting cis women play against cis men.

    Although I have played in matches where exactly that happened. Irish internationals of all genders were involved. It was great fun. Ireland won, No one was injured.



    Did you miss that this thread is about Transgender women competing against cis women?

    Transgender women are not men.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    They are considering an option where transgender men can play with/against males, where certain strict criteria are met.

    They are not allowinging transgender woman to compete with females due to the big difference in physical attributes. This is to protect the female players.



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