Russia - threadbanned users in OP

I think it's mostly Azov Battalion down there. They know full well if they surrendered, they would killed by the Russians. Amazing effort down there.

Saying that, once the Russians take what's left of Mariupol, Putin may take that as his win. He has gotten rid of his Nazi's, taken most of Donbass & Luhansk and just call it a day. It could be his get out.

Ukraine also get rid of their nazi problem and the Azov Battalion go down as National Heroes.

It's a bit of a grim scenario that may suit all sides.

Just to comment on your ideas about this. If it has to happen very suddenly (a separation from China say, as is being done with Russia at the moment), it is going to be chaos and there will be a huge global economic crisis. I can't actually wrap my head around it really. However, I think you do exaggerate a bit (other post) claiming we are 40-50 years with a critical dependency built up on China and other cheap non US/non Western manufacturing and outsourcing locations to run our economies and provide standard of living we expect. It perhaps began back in 1980s when free marketeers had long stretches in govt. in the US/UK, but it has really picked up in pace post 2000. It has only gotten to the dangerous state that exists now (where the disconnection would cause a crisis/disaster) post the IT/communications revolution and China joining WTO and opening up more to investment.

There is maybe 20-30 years of outsourcing critical manufacturing and services to put into reverse, so if the policy changes start today and are kept to by governments its going to take on scale of a 1 (maybe too optimistic)-2 decades at least to correct it more gradually. Afair the important things in life (job, house, transport [car], raising children, healthcare, retirement) were really not any less affordable or available than now and were not of a terrible standard back in those years in the rich Western countries. People travelled far less abroad, they had less cheap throwaway "stuff" of all types incl. electronics and they waited a bit longer to get what they wanted. The hyper-consumerism had not got fully into gear. I'm not sure if rowing back from this will be a bad thing at all in the end provided its a weaning rather than a shock. Another aspect is the rich had not yet pulled quite as far away from the rest of us in countries like the US (and they are the ones driving alot of this consumption...maybe they should take alot of the hit in that area). The (originally Western) MNCs hadn't bloated up to the size and power they are now etc, thanks to global markets and supply chains.

Also reverting supply chains and critical manufacturing and services in Western economies to be more like what they were 2-3 decades ago as regards location does not mean rejecting 2-3 decades of technological and scientific progress made in the interim like a complete luddite.

Not liking what I’m reading about this Azov group.

Not a good look for Ukraine and zelensky to be honest.

Maybe NATO can give an ultimatum

Withdraw your troops or we will be at war on such a date

On the build up to this date we evacuate all the large population centres

If they don't withdraw on that date then NATO hits them hard, obliterate their military

If they respond with nuclear missiles then NATO responds in kind

Yes, thousands would be killed but if we don't stop Putler then millions will die

Bravo - Definitely - Dead right! lmao

They sure have a hard neck. All of their talk about Ukrainians being "Nazis", "drug addicts" and "bandits" strikes me as being 100% racist and yet they are the one complaining about receiving hate.

I think the big question is who will do these jobs and at what level of pay? The west has more or less full employment so if all the outsourced work or factory’s came back to Europe or US there would need to be mass immigration and existing resources would be stretched to the point they would break….just look at housing

I roared laughing @Wibbs - I saw it on my YT feed - naturally iv been watching a lot of stuff on the war - so 'recommended for me'

my initial reaction

followed by

I mean its beyond pathetic - Can you imagine the mental state of people in a meeting. Of 'Western Aimed Propaganda' - signing off - on that

'Yes. That will Definitely Konvince those Western fools Komrade - Good work - You now receive 'Hero of Soviet Union Russian Federation'

"If they respond with nuclear missiles then NATO responds in kind

Yes, thousands would be killed but if we don't stop Putler then millions will die"

If they respond with nuclear and NATO responds in kind that thousands can have several zeros added onto the end of it on both sides.

Millions would die in a nuclear war and worse still, it's highly likely those who survive would be envious of those who didn't.

"We've never seen this, not since WW2, maybe not even then." Daft prick never heard of Aleppo did he. On his watch and did nothing.

Someone suggested a few days ago that this thread should be re-named and I agree. I can't remember the suggestion details but it really should be changed from "Russia" to "Russian invasion of Ukraine". This thread is about nothing other than the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It's pretty standard to address former presidents as, "Mr. President".

As predicted that Russian paper which released Russian MOD figures of military deaths (almost 10k) has quickly retracted the article and claimed it was "hacked".

At least now we have an idea of how many Russian casualties there have been.

I'm kind of just waffling here and not putting significant thought into it or how things would change I suppose (and maybe I should shut up, as its very off topic...) but first it doesn't all have to come back.Also on unemployment/availability of workers, perhaps not here (Ireland) but thought there were some European countries with large amounts of persistent unemployment (haven't checked rates though) + also under-employment in areas. Even in US, alot of not so great lower skilled jobs that maybe keep people employed, but aren't particularly productive (could a machine do them?), are insecure and do not pay very well. I think any manufacturing stuff that comes back from China/India or the like is not going to operate in the way it did when it moved there (or how it works now). It will be more automated first because it is new investment and that is the way the world is going anyway and also because workers are going to be somewhat dearer and as you point out in shorter supply.

I doubt the Russians have any intention any more of striking out for Ukraine's western frontiers (if they ever did) and if the Belarussians proposed that on their own bat they would very likely discourage them. I'm sure the Russian commanders on the ground at least realise Lviv would be several bridges too far...