M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Hibernicis · 22-03-2022 9:57pm

The Limerick Shannon Mertopolitan Transport Strategy (LSMATS) is a strategy document, not a plan. These are very different things. A strategy document of this nature is aspirational and will contain many different suggestions, options and alternatives. Some ideas will be adopted, some will emerge much altered and some will never be heard of again. It contains no committed budgets, no financial commitments, no committed timeline and no committed deliverables. A strategy is very necessary as part of the groundwork. But is it most certainly not a plan. And in any event, LSMATS is still in draft, itself a disappointing state of affairs.

This is what the latest draft of LSMATS has to say on the subject: Dual Track from Limerick Colbert to Limerick Junction It is the intention of the NTA, Iarnród Eireann and both local authorities to work in collaboration to investigate the feasibility of providing a dual-track between Limerick Colbert and Limerick Junction to facilitate improved national and regional connectivity.

So yes, there is a written aspiration to investigate the feasibility of dualling the track from Limerick toLimerick Junction, but as I said earlier there is no plan to do so.

Pete_Cavan · 22-03-2022 10:07pm

Limerick to Limerick Junction will only see a few trains per hour, nowhere near enough to justify double tracking.

Limerick74 · 22-03-2022 10:15pm

The dual tracking will allow greater flexibility with scheduling and capacity as trains have to pull in at lay-bys at the moment. I understand that funding has been committed to progress this so more than a strategy now.

Chris_5339762 · 22-03-2022 10:31pm

My one worry with a hybrid "upgrade the N20" plus "some rail" strategy is that we'd get the rail plus a Type 2, not a motorway. I can see that being the compromise. But we'll see.

alias no.9 · 22-03-2022 11:25pm

Type 1 DC or Motorway would bring all of the traffic exploiting all manner of rat runs onto the mainline along with some future proofing.

Type 2 from Patrickswell to Blarney with grade seperated junctions and no roundabouts is preferable to either doing nothing which has been the strategy for far too long and the NIMBYS favourite of going via Cahir.

There's a lot of low hanging fruit to provide improvement on the current rail route, but the direct Charleville to Limerick fails to address the compromised locations of both Kent and Colbert stations in their respective cities and the budget that would be spent on the direct route would be better spent connecting the two terminals with their respective hinterlands.

Hibernicis · 23-03-2022 9:58am

@Limerick74 do you have an attributable source for this “I understand that funding has been committed to progress this”

marno21 · 23-03-2022 12:51pm

https://twitter.com/corkcoco/status/1506593966334136324?s=21

I would put good money on “improved road infrastructure” being the reuse of the Croom bypass and the Rathduff-Blarney WS2 for the motorway. Reusing 15km+ of existing roadbed is massively cost saving (when you consider the terrain for greenfield routes) and can be sold as the whole route not being a massive greenfield motorway.

Also note “improvements to public transport”, white elephant new railway line via Croom in the bin where it belongs

Limerick74 · 23-03-2022 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822169#Comment_118822169

There has been a lot of discussion on this in local media and I remember hearing an Irish Rail spokesperson say that planning and design work has commenced. See article in Limerick Leader for context https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/752955/plans-for-new-railway-line-in-limerick-could-fix-delays-and-reduce-train-times.html

cgcsb · 27-03-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820960#Comment_118820960

The strategic rail review recommends increasing Dublin to Cork train frequency and introduction of direct Limerick to Cork trains this won't be possible without double tracking or at least providing passing loops

Hibernicis · 29-03-2022 12:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824989#Comment_118824989

You are correct that there has been a lot of discussion in the local media and elsewhere about this and a lot of other possible rail projects. I don't dispute that. The article in the Limerick Leader is a very poorly written piece which attempts to paraphrase what Jim Meade (CEO of Iarnrod Eireann) said at the the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport on the 16th Feb 2021 and 17th Feb 2022 and it makes a terrible job of it. In brief, he outlined the investigation and preparatory work done to date, which is basically a scoping exercise. There is approx 30km of track to be laid, and the high level cost estimate is €60m-€80m. Iarnrod Eireann believe that it may be possible to treat this as an engineering project and thereby avoid the need for a Railway Order. (Because they are relaying the second track, so there is no land acquisition etc). Timeframe is 4 years to completion once funding is approved (2 years for design etc and 18 months for delivery). But he was very clear that there is no funding in place, and the project does not have the go-ahead. Iarnrod Eireann has no decision making power in this regard, as Jim Meade said previously, when talking about projects which Iarnrod Eireann favoured:

While Mr Meade said Irish Rail was keen to expand and improve the network, he reminded TDs and Senators that Irish Rail was not the decision maker on the requirements for public transport – a role which was held by local authorities and the National Transport Authority. Nor was Irish Rail the funder of expansion projects, he said – a role held by the Department of Transport.

Reading between the lines, it looks to me as though Iarnrod Eireann are doing the preliminary work necessary to have a figure available for The Strategic Rail Review, the M/N20 project or any other opportunity that comes along to get this funded.

So yes there is discussion etc etc. As there are about an awful lot of other rail projects. But as of now there is no plan in place. That of course may change on/after Wednesday.

pajoguy · 30-03-2022 8:56am

Councillors and TDs being briefed this morning prior to the public display at midday. I'm sure the politicians will spoil the surprise for some of us.

Chris_5339762 · 30-03-2022 10:22am

My bet is a 2+2 plus a Limerick Junction upgrade + dual tracking to Limerick. Just a wild guess though.

pajoguy · 30-03-2022 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855034#Comment_118855034

I don't think there will be that detail in relation to road type announced today. I'd like to be wrong. 100m wide corridor may be all we get plus the Active Travel Sustainable Transport stuff.

raindodger · 30-03-2022 11:03am

letter from local td yesterday re announcement

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2022 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855096#Comment_118855096

I think it nearly will have to be. The corridor depends on what type of road. They will have to define whether it's DC, SC or Motorway or what combination and where. They will also need to defined if there is a rail line from Charlesville to Limerick.

I know eon would like to say nothing but an idea of the proposal will be required

rebel333 · 30-03-2022 11:50am

Padraigh o Sullivan has confirmed that it’s green route to mallow.

lansing · 30-03-2022 11:50am

Just in.....

AugustusMinimus · 30-03-2022 11:54am

Is the green route very different to the previous M20 proposal from 10 years ago? This thing online I’m guessing?

marno21 · 30-03-2022 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855532#Comment_118855532

Pretty much the same. A lot of online work so plenty of costs saved on new earthworks and 1/2 bridges. Saves a lot of rancour about farmland and houses being bought up too

KrisW1001 · 30-03-2022 12:06pm

From the map on that post, you can see it is the same as the old route. The black-white dotted line on those maps is the previous M20 proposal.

A mostly-online upgrade (only going offline to bypass the small towns) is the sensible choice for this stretch of the route - much of the existing mainline was put in place with a future motorway upgrade in mind.

cjpm · 30-03-2022 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855532#Comment_118855532

Practically the same as 2010

marno21 · 30-03-2022 12:12pm

Very sensible decision. The old route along with upgrading the existing rail service.

Hibernicis · 30-03-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855621#Comment_118855621

A victory for common sense really, assuming that the next phase produces a dual carriageway of some sort.

Interesting that the "new rail" route was priced at 7 times the cost of upgrading the existing route. Based on Jim Meade's figures, this puts the direct route at somewhere around half a billion euro. Thankfully that's in the bin.

Bazzer007 · 30-03-2022 12:24pm

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/breaking-news/778318/breaking-preferred-route-for-new-limerick-cork-road-project-is-revealed.html

marno21 · 30-03-2022 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855650#Comment_118855650

I’d say Type 1 from Cork to Charleville and Croom to Patrickswell at least. Ideally Type 1 the whole length as this new road will suck up serious volumes of traffic from roads that people currently use to avoid the current route. Type 1 would likely be designated motorway as per recent precedent (M6 and M21).

As they say, the new rail link won’t take traffic off the road but take passengers from bus services. The right rail option was chosen as it helps the Dublin Limerick route too. The new M20 will be a boon for bus services.

Hibernicis · 30-03-2022 12:46pm

One think I particularly like about the proposed route is that it puts a fistful of nails in Ryan's ramblings about building a few bypasses first (he used the example of Cashel) and possibly following up at a later date with road improvements to connect them (like the rest of the M8). The route design where it passes Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville is totally unsuited to this daft phased ad-hockery.

pigtown · 30-03-2022 12:47pm

I've been skeptical about this new road but I think this approach to connecting cities is a very welcome change. The inclusion of active travel, rail upgrade, and mobility hubs is great.

Compare this proposal with the N/M18 which has made driving from Limerick to Galway very easy but has done nothing for active travel and the rail line is very uncompetitive.

Ideally the Limerick-Waterford route as one of the last intercity routes will get the same comprehensive treatment.

AugustusMinimus · 30-03-2022 12:49pm

Happy enough given this alignment. Thank god that the M8 option is in the bin anyways.

Glenomra · 30-03-2022 1:00pm

I know that I am asking a lot but could some poster who is familiar with the proposal summarise how limerick will be linked up with cork by road. Many posters obviously familiar with previous plans refer to them etc but many potential road users will not know the detail. Will there be a completely new line or will it encompass existing lines and if so will the existing lines be upgraded etc. Thanks in anticipation.

marno21 · 30-03-2022 1:08pm

RTÉ report on the News at One leading with celebrations in places the route won’t be going and anger and talks of legal challenges among landowners.

A minor footnote at the end about the intercity bus journeys being cut by 30 minutes and the new hourly rail service between the two cities.

Septic.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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