P&O Ferries to Make a Major Announcement.

Shebean · 18-03-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237752/p-o-ferries-to-make-a-major-announcement

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797935#Comment_118797935

Yes. The public were rightly appalled. They were doing the same thing. Taking on foreign workers and paying them buttons while not renewing contracts of the current workers. I think it was cleaning staff. Fair play all the cabin crew went on strike. There was a big march up O'Connell street protesting undercutting Irish workers and abusing foreign ones.

Then the union cut a deal which saw current members looked after, but the practice continued. So this is chickens coming home to roost for that union.

Dyr · 18-03-2022 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798078#Comment_118798078

And if I recall, the Irish unions had **** all to say about the scabs who took the jobs other than that they were also victims, given that they were not white 🤣

Shebean · 18-03-2022 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801292#Comment_118801292

Do you think if wages remain low, companies will be okay not looking for more profits? Problem is companies by nature want to make money. It's understandable, but it drives up costs. Higher wages are generally requested due to costs, not the other way around. Maybe employees will stick with low wages when companies decide they have enough wealth. Can you see that happening? Do you believe for one minute that ferry companies are looking to cut costs so they can provide cheaper fares? Will they be taking a pay cut at board level do you think?

brokenangel · 18-03-2022 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801869#Comment_118801869

All if buts and maybes in that post. I just gave an opinion. You would need to be at a board meeting for the company to answer

For Forks Sake · 18-03-2022 3:14pm

Worth noting that RMT (the union representing the ferry staff) backed Brexit and encouraged their members to vote leave. Clowns.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

Suckit · 18-03-2022 3:16pm

I hadn't realised that the ruler of Dubai owns them. I knew that the same owners owned the majority of freehold ports.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/17/sheikh-shuts-po-ferries-battle-unions/

I doubt No10 will find much, Seems they are too powerful, which is a ridiculous position for a company to be in.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-government-looking-whether-po-26500302

Atlantic Dawn · 18-03-2022 3:50pm

Why did the British government give P&O £10 million in furlough cash during lockdown when all their vessels were registered in Cyprus and so the responsibility of the Cypriot government?

Could a supermarket in UK sack its entire workforce and replace them in the morning with contract staff on the Albanian minimum wage?

sutrapall · 18-03-2022 4:13pm

Generally, what we're seeing across the board is the utterly expected result of globalisation. Namely, that it doesn't work, a hare-brained scheme of perpetual motion.

The sense of globalisation can be summed up with that one example from years back, that the cost of petroleum to ship an avocado is 10 euro, only for it to be sold for 1 euro.

All magic tom-fookery, sleights of hand and creative accounting have sustained such a broken model for so long that we are now passed the point of no return, and no clue as to how to fix it.

The staff on this company have realised they are part of yet another pyramid scheme that can only fall apart, replaced by who-cares from who-knows in order to squeak out another couple of years of irrational profit for some bloke on the other side of the planet before inevitability hits and it all goes down and he won't give a toss either way.

Globalisation. It doesn't work, and it never worked.

Annasopra · 18-03-2022 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800575#Comment_118800575

I heard BBC this morning saying this probably because

A The government werent informed

B There was no negotiation on redundancies.

Clearly shows P and O and Government are absolute utter scum in this

Capt'n Midnight · 18-03-2022 5:50pm

More than 100 redundancies so there's a legal obligation to consult with union / employee representatives and inform Redundancy Payments Service (RPS) at least 45 days ahead. This wasn't done so it's almost certainly unfair dismissal.

You can be fined an unlimited amount if you do not notify RPS. Game Over.

This is yet another situation where existing laws are adequate as long as there is the political will to enforce them.

Suckit · 18-03-2022 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802490#Comment_118802490

Yeah, it was just on the newsm pretty much saying the same, also saying that there are multiple employees rights breached, not just on the amount of notice given.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-03-2022 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803018#Comment_118803018

Brexit was supposedly to take back control. The UK govt need to stomp on this hard if they care about workers and red wall support. But if they care more for party donors then it'll just be lip service.

Clear breach of law and unlimited fine. Ports are a red herring, different company even if they have the same parent.

brokenangel · 18-03-2022 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803404#Comment_118803404

Brexit was just one big racist vote. For some reason, mostly poor information, that all the problems in the UK was Europes fault. When in reality Europe was holding the whole thing together.

The UK government are going to do nothing about this, it will be in the news for a few days and then it will be closed down. After covid and brexit the government need the ports open and ships sailing or the UK economy is going to come crumbling down fast.

AndrewJRenko · 19-03-2022 1:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803492#Comment_118803492

For some reason, mostly poor information

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801288#Comment_118801288

19-03-2022 8:36am

The dubai ruling class is busy making a income stream for when the oil runs out. And they are going to make it the same way they built up their emirate, oil money, hot money, sharp practice and exploitation(slave labour).

Now if the west just stopped trading with Dubai it would collapse like a house of cards into Yemen

Kiwi John · 19-03-2022 10:10am

Appalling way to treat your long-term workers by P&O but Irish Ferries did the same and last time I sailed with Stena the crew were mostly Asian.

May be P&O are just playing catchup.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-03-2022 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803492#Comment_118803492

Unlimited fine.

Govt could take the company over and sell or transfer it to another ferry operator.

Local elections soon.

But yeah they govt will ignore this except to make soundbites and hope it goes away.

Annasopra · 19-03-2022 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803404#Comment_118803404

I have enormous sympathy for the workers in P and O but I feel like really telling RMT to go f<ck themselves for supporting Brexit. They reap what they sew.

20-03-2022 11:35pm

U.K. Government were aware that the job losses were going to happen apparently

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ministers-knew-of-p-and-o-ferries-plans-to-slash-jobs-41466624.html

trixi001 · 21-03-2022 4:21pm

Seems to be serious breaches of employment law

I always thought An employee cannot be made redundant unless the role is made redundant and it looks like these roles aren't redundant, just being done by cheaper staff!

Here is an analysis of it from solicitors, possible unfair dismissal, unlimited fines for no redundancy consultation etc.

https://www.oakwoodsolicitors.co.uk/news/po-redundancies-a-legal-breakdown/

blackwhite · 21-03-2022 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814687#Comment_118814687

The thing is - because the tasks are being outsourced to an agency, technically all of the roles with P&O are redundant whilst new roles with a different company (the agency) are being created.

Most EU countries have some form of legislation covering scenarios like this, but the UK's legislation is quite limited and multiple UK Goverments have resisted calls for legislation to mirror what other EU countries brought in over the past 20 years.

It looks like P&O have breached the laws regarding consultations and notifications, etc. but ultimately if they had followed the letter of the law they still could have arrived at the same outcome with the same level of redundancies.

Fasano · 21-03-2022 9:26pm

If that is the case, then surely it is a simple case of TUPE applying, which is pretty comprehensive. The only get out, which I believe Irish Ferries used, is that TUPE does not apply if jobs are moving across a border, such as a ship suddenly becoming registered in Limassol instead of Dublin.

blackwhite · 21-03-2022 11:19pm

Most EU countries changed their laws to ensure that TUPE would apply in cases like this following the Irish Ferries case.

UK chose not to, and this is a consequence of that decision.

fryup · 21-03-2022 11:32pm

seemingly they're bringing in Asian workers to slash labour costs, shameful if true

Union claims Indian seafarers replacing 800 sacked workers are being paid €2.16 an hour

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/p-o-could-face-criminal-prosecution-over-sackings-uk-minister-warns-1.4832573

21-03-2022 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816511#Comment_118816511

Ireland didn't either as far as I am aware or the changes made were still p1ss poor.

In 2018 IBM sold Domino and Notes to HCL and told their Dublin based staff that they either moved to HCL through TUPE or they would be legally considered to be resigning their positions with IBM as of 31.12.18 with no options for redundancy etc as per the Irish implementation of TUPE.

One member of the team was French and actually working from home in France and basically said no that's not how the French version of TUPE works and IBM would have to provide him with redendency or find him a new position in IBM.

He was the only one IBM couldn't get rid of and is still working for them. The Irish based staff moved to HCL and were made redundant within the two year period covered by the Irish implementation of TUPE.

Fasano · 22-03-2022 4:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816511#Comment_118816511

Those rules still apply based on where the ship is registers, do they not?

so Irish ferries workers are still not protected by Irish law.

blackwhite · 22-03-2022 8:24am

My understanding of what happened was that the ships were Irish registered, and then they moved them to Cyprus and outsourced the workers at the same time. The updates to legislation, as I understand, was to stop companies being able to quickly offshore the registrations and then immediately offload the staff - which is what P&O have done here

Cal4567 · 22-03-2022 8:52am

Brexit has little to do with this. UK employment law has not largely changed, whether it may do so in the future is another matter. It is one of the areas that there has been much focus on since the Brexit vote. I suspect the Tories would if they could push for more deregulation that would affect employee rights, but are fearful of the backlash from the voting public.

We in Ireland cannot just assume that all bad news related to the UK is because of Brexit although I'm still expecting another Fintan O'Toole column soon informing me otherwise.

This is more another clash of the modern world where foreign ownership based on countries where this sort of activity is the norm, when it impacts on us, is quite the eye opener.

I do agree here though with a lot of posters. They'll be a lot of huffing and puffing but P and O will succeed with this. Interesting comments above how those employers previously couldn't shaft the French based worker, but most others were fair game.

Some of us will vote with our feet, others will use this ferry company if they are just cheaper.

JimmyVik · 22-03-2022 9:12am

€600 return to holyhead in the summer and over €3000 return to France.

No wonder the company is struggling. At that kind of price you could fly and then BUY a car over there.

Add that to the lack of goodwill they have now after the treatment of their staff and their hiring of slavesd, I think this company is a goner.

El Tarangu · 22-03-2022 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802156#Comment_118802156

'Ireland' is one of globalisation's success stories, and the only place I can think of where it would cost €10 to ship an avocado is low Earth orbit.

23-03-2022 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817393#Comment_118817393

People said that about Irish Ferries and they are still here, will be the same with P&O.

fryup · 23-03-2022 10:25am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

yep, because there's fek all alternative😕

23-03-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822285#Comment_118822285

Have only used a ferry once and that was for work so can't comment on what the competitors like Stena are like

23-03-2022 11:18am

As expected, they had all their ducks in a row before shooting.

“The millionaire boss of P&O Ferries has insisted that the disgraced operator did not break British labour laws by sensationally sacking 800 seafarers without notice in one fell swoop via video call – because their ships were registered outside of the UK.

Writing to Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng yesterday, Peter Hebblethwaite said the ‘very clear statutory obligation in the particular circumstances that applied was for each company to notify the competent authority of the state where the vessel is registered’ – in this case, Cyprus and the Bahamas.

The chief executive, who fired 800 crew on the spot to replace them with cheaper agency workers and defended an earlier round of sackings by declaring ‘only the fittest survive’, wrote that notification had been made to the relevant authorities on March 17, and that no offence had been committed regarding notifying the Secretary of State.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10641827/P-O-Ferries-chief-says-no-offence-committed-shock-sacking-staff.html

end of the road · 23-03-2022 12:32pm

it seems the staff employment contracts may have been signed in the channel islands, who's laws are similar to britain, so there could still be breaches of employment law if that is the case.

given their shambolic handling of the whole thing, i would actually be surprised if they do indeed have their ducks in a row, but time will ultimately tell, if the company even manages to survive, which if the claimed losses per year are true, is probably not likely.

fryup · 25-03-2022 1:49pm

they'll go the same way as B+I

Atlantic Dawn · 25-03-2022 11:34pm

P&O's European Causeway vessel has been detained in Larne for being unfit to sail...

The European Causeway vessel has been held in the Northern Ireland port due to "failures on crew familiarisation, vessel documentation and crew training", the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) said.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0325/1288382-p-o-ferries-transport-secretary/

26-03-2022 12:44pm

Good for the Coastguards!

”A P&O ferry has been detained in Northern Ireland by the coastguard after 'failures on crew familiarisation, vessel documentation and crew training'.

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency said the ship, named the European Causeway, had been detained in Larne, Northern Ireland last week 'based on concerns over its safety' and to 'prevent them going to sea'.

In a statement the agency said the vessel would remain under detention 'until all these issues have been resolved' by P&O Ferries.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10653801/Scandal-hit-P-O-ferry-detained-Northern-Ireland-failures-crew-training.html

cnocbui · 26-03-2022 1:05pm

It seems to me ships should only be allowed to be registered in countries they regularly dock in, say 20% of annual port calls.

dam099 · 26-03-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118838274#Comment_118838274

Would agree for passenger ships but not sure it would be workable for global freight, could severely limit flexibility to move ships around to where the demand is especially specialised ones e.g. right now we might be wanting some of the ships capable of carrying LNG redirected to European ports.

Atlantic Dawn · 28-03-2022 4:40pm

Britain to bring in legislation that ferry operators docking in its ports will have to pay the minimum wage. That will have implications for staff in Irish Ferries.

Britain said today it will force ferry operators docking in its ports to pay the minimum wage as it stepped up pressure on P&O Ferries to rehire 800 workers who the company fired without notice in favour of cheaper staff.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0328/1288934-p-o-ferries/

Sultan of Bling · 28-03-2022 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847814#Comment_118847814

Will it be too late for these poor workers though?

Atlantic Dawn · 28-03-2022 8:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848386#Comment_118848386

Probably, those sacked were given redundancy, not sure how easy that is to rollback or if they would wish to work for the company under a low but legal minimum wage salary.

jippo nolan · 28-03-2022 8:54pm

And top up their redundancy payment every week, while doing a soft shoe shuffle!

Seth Brundle · 28-03-2022 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847814#Comment_118847814

How would that actually be worked? Would all foreign registered vessels have to provide payroll data on request or what?

Atlantic Dawn · 28-03-2022 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848926#Comment_118848926

Yes something like that, it gets complex because they will in turn use agency staff so there might not be a clear way to properly see what the individual is getting, they may also have live aboard allowances and expenses taken from their wage so lots of investigating needed. A lot of UK/Irish workers would have done something like 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, these agency staff might be aboard for months and then return to their home country.

P&O Ferries to Make a Major Announcement.

Comments

Union claims Indian seafarers replacing 800 sacked workers are being paid €2.16 an hour