Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Flinty997 · 22-03-2022 5:21pm

If someone's questions are all one sided, its unlikely to be accidental. That's the evidence. But let assume they are not.

Military spending (and Europe is no different) has long been used to boost domestic economies.

Dohnjoe · 22-03-2022 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819682#Comment_118819682

Is there a conspiracy involving the current US administration and the Russian invasion of Ukraine? I'm not seeing one. You seem to just want to present your own personal political views of it (packaged as "questions")

Drumpot · 22-03-2022 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819482#Comment_118819482

That poster is not just "matter of fact" responses, they keep lieing about an agenda that doesnt exist. If I pretty much said to you "I know your game, I know what you are trying to do" in every f**king response I made, you wouldnt be loving that would you ? Fact is that none of you have any idea why I have posted the thread. People are spending more time trying to "catch me out", that says more about these posters then me.

Inflation has been rising for awhile, it hasn't just happened because of the war.

I do think it would suit the USA to have a democracy in Ukraine, but its not the USA being destroyed to create that democracy, its not their people being killed. Its like me saying I will give you all the weapons you want, let your house be destroyed and your family die to protect some ideal I share with you, how does that make my motives pure ?

My questions are not neutral ? What should I have posted ? What should I have called the thread ? Please explain how one can start a thread on such a sensitive topic without sounding like one has a concrete opinion without offending anybody and without getting dogs abuse from people who appear to be unable to discuss a topic without projecting imaginary conspiracy's and attacking the posters motives ?

Flinty997 · 22-03-2022 6:15pm

The Ukraine already had a democracy. They are fighting to keep it. It was that democracy keeping them on the fence between Russia and EU.

Its the Ukrainians wanting not to be a Russian police state. It was made very clear the west wouldn't give direct military support. They decided it was worth it fighting for. Are still deciding daily, hourly, that its worth fighting and dying for.

Its not Russia being destroyed either, or any other country in Europe. Not Ireland. What has that got to do with anything?

Cheerful S · 22-03-2022 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817004#Comment_118817004

Reporting about a new war must contain details that are truthful, factual, and show no bias. It’s Russian haters like yourself, believing the Ukraine army is crushing the Russian army and the evitable triumph is coming.

Never claimed the Russians are not losing armor and men, clearly, they are in big numbers. The reality is this is a hard war for them and up against a strong defending army. There made territorial gains and progress still taking place and the new land now occupied. Counter advances have to achieve wins for the Ukrainian side. Yet I see so far nothing major retaken since the war was launched three weeks ago.

My opinion about Putin is unimportant.

I always maintained real peace between an independent Ukraine and Russia is what I like to see here. I don’t celebrate Putin's invasion, it’s a tragedy on an epic scale never needed to happen. But many in the west and people like yourself are so brainwashed have no self-awareness of what other countries think. You are so one-sided in outlook all Russia's fault.

Don't see the big picture noninterference and staying out of Nato is the best choice for Ukraine., The scenes after the Invasion do show the true colors of the western powers. They're not trying to negotiate a settlement there sending weapons that kill Russian troops. You only showing Putin ( in his mind) fears right all along. West is a hostile alliance. Where your tears for the people in Syria and Yemen and other conflicts. I had two-faced people because now its Russian war and now time for all cry babies to scream blue murder online.

King Mob · 23-03-2022 12:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821356#Comment_118821356

Lol. Your opinion about putin is important. The fact you won't share it because it would show you up as a massive hypocrite shows why no one should take you seriously.

Though you have constantly displayed complete ignorance and dishonesty and hypocrisy, so it really wouldn't change much.

23-03-2022 12:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821356#Comment_118821356

Eh, the west supplying weapons makes plenty of sense. It's an invasion of a democratic nation on spurious grounds. And in terms of a settlement, there's been ongoing peace talks throughout, they appear to serve the purpose of buying Putin time when he needs it and that's about it. Humanitarian corridors etc have been attacked by Russia. Journalists have been killed too.

It's also not proving Putin's fears when he invades a nation and the world responds. Meanwhile you're happily ignoring all the bad faith acts of Putin not just now but since he's come to power. He's actively used chemical and radioactive weapons in the UK. He's jailed his political opponents, has had journalists murdered. Yet it's the west that's the problem? The level of tolerance the west has shown towards his constant power plays has led us to this point. Frankly, death could not come sooner to Putin. But meanwhile we'll get idiots that downplay all this **** and probably even claim it didn't happen or try to justify it.

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 12:27am

The Russian invasion is like a bike thief being unable to steal a bicycle destroying it in frustration.

Defending that is like blaming the destruction on the bike on the bike owner for locking it. They should have handed it over to the thief.

The vast majority of weapons, aircraft, tanks, rifles are all Russian weapons. What's killing Russian Troops is invading another country. The Ukrainians are also capturing Russian weapons and re using them. They wouldn't be able to do that if the Russians hadn't brought them into the Ukraine in the first place.

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821356#Comment_118821356

Hilarious stuff. You've been happily regurgitating Putin's propaganda here for years.

King Mob · 23-03-2022 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822376#Comment_118822376

It's really funny that conspiracy theorists keep telling us we're brainwashed. Keep telling us that all media is propaganda.Keeping telling us that they're able to figure out the true.

But when the state media of a authoritarian regime that's been in power for over 20 years states something that is clearly false and clearly insane, they believe it instantly and without question.

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822421#Comment_118822421

Putin's regime is up to it's neck in murders, poisonings, stealing wealth, disinfo, conspiracies, false flags, troll factories, fake news stations, you name it - conspiracy theorists don't care, they ignore all that and instead have happily lapping up and parroting his propaganda for years. We know this, it's been plastered all over this forum for years.

Now that reality has shattered this world view, how do they respond? a few weeks confusion while they regroup and start blaming Ukraine and the West for all this again, while labelling everyone else as "brainwashed". They are so consistent it's incredible.

King Mob · 23-03-2022 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822502#Comment_118822502

Lately I've been listening the Knowledge Fight Podcast that cover Alex Jones and Info Wars. The last few weeks they've been talking about how Jones is dealing with the situation given how often he praised and supported Putin and repeated his propaganda.

It's pretty interesting to see how he flips his story inside of a week when it becomes too unprofitable for him to continue to openly support Putin while he's having hospitals shelled.

Previously he had been claiming that Putin was planning to go into Ukraine with ease because he'd paid off the Ukrainian army to let him take over. And this was all a blow again the boogeymen Alex likes to ramble about.

Now however the story is that Putin was forced into invading by the boogeymen and Ukraine is being defended by secret guerilla fighters that the US left there in 1945.

Like @Cheerful S, he's couching his statements by vaguely handwaving what the Russians are doing. The usual "well, they are doing some bad stuff." but without actually being specific so that he doesn't have to express an opinion.

It's funny to see that the same kind of thinking and mental gymnastics are shared by the big fish and the little fish in the conspiracy pond.

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 11:32am

People get so entrenched in one idea that it becomes dogma, and they can't see the bigger picture. What's more this mindset becomes engrained, habitual. They lose the ability to consider things holistically. They are stuck in tunnel vision mode.

It's why we see so much of this mindset in social media and forums like this. They've just latched onto some one else's dogma because they are no longer able to critically process information for themselves.

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822616#Comment_118822616

Indeed, also simply because they want to feel special or "enlightened" by having some sort of secret information. There's a strong whiff of narcissism to it all: "The world's reporters and experts are wrong, I am right".

Fathom · 23-03-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815486#Comment_118815486

Who invaded whom in this current war? Who surrounded the independent European nation of Ukraine, pretending to play war games, while mobilizing? Followed by attacking Ukraine with almost 200K troops, hundreds of tanks and other military vehicles, artillery, war aircraft, war ships, and missiles killing Ukraine military and civilians? Who?

You can comfortably chat from your safe living room or coffeehouse while one of those “human shields” is a civilian male relative of mine trying to survive in Ukraine. I talked with him yesterday, who could not stay on the phone for long, before the air raid sirens caused him to break off.

He does not buy into the Putin “human shields” propaganda talking points, like this one used here, to justify the vast destruction of Ukraine’s cities by one of the largest armies in the world. No one is hiding behind him, as suggested by the armchair generals here on this thread. Rather, he is fighting alongside Ukraine’s military trying to stop Russia from taking their homes by force of arms.

He, and other “human shields,” are fighting invading Russians, while he and his fellow “human shields” try to evacuate woman and children to the rear (Poland). Although some of the “human shields” are younger women, armed and dangerous, fighting alongside him.

The two-sided argument happens to be another Putin propaganda talking point, now passed on by our safe, armchair generals here, far away from the bullets, bombs, and missiles that worry my “Human shield” and fighting relative; and me, about him. When war is not up-close-and-personal, we can sit back in our comfy armchairs and chat about how unfair it is not to take the invading Russian side of the argument, can’t we?

Hotblack Desiato · 23-03-2022 6:02pm

Imagine if I started a thread

"SPACE ALIENS TOTALLY CAUSED 9-11!!!!!1!!!1!!"

Then changed it to

"Did space aliens contribute to the events leading up to 9-11?"

Then when challenged say:

"I don't know whether space aliens had anything to do with it, I'm just asking questions"

Does anyone think I should be taken seriously?

silliussoddius · 23-03-2022 6:10pm

It would be best to say if the US contributed to Aliens causing 911.

CalamariFritti · 23-03-2022 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824899#Comment_118824899

You are right in that its easy to say stuff from a safe few thousand miles away. Guilty as charged.

But I think the Ukraine cannot win this war. Not in the open anyway and really not at all. Russia is too superior in the air and can fly around and attack stuff with impunity. There is a reason why the Ukrainian president is screaming for a 'no-fly-zone'. Its the major factor in this. So to avoid the Russian air superiority the Ukrainian army is entrenched in the cities which of course brings the fight to the cities.

Given that I think that the Ukraine can not win this war this is a terrible decision IMO.

IMO they can lose this war and have their country still intact or they can lose this war with thousands of more lives lost and their cities destroyed. The Ukrainian government backed by the West seems to have decided its worth to fight to the last Ukrainian man and bring the war to the cities. And people here believe this decision is backed by every Ukrainian man and and woman. Maybe it is, who knows. I somehow doubt it.

Yes and I understand they are not the attacker and its Russia who is bringing the war to the Ukraine and its cities ultimately. But you can die a 'free' and principled hero or make peace and live and still have something to live for/in.

If the Ukrainian government cared for their people at all they would surrender IMO. And if 'the West' cared for ending this war they would stop egging them on and stop sending more weapons in there.

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825068#Comment_118825068

The Russians still don't have air-superiority and most fronts are close to a stalemate at the moment. Ukraine is actually making some small successful counter-attacks.

The Ukrainians know the Russians better than any of us and they are choosing to fight for their country, they are so far doing an extraordinary job of it. Still not sure what the conspiracy angle is here?

CalamariFritti · 23-03-2022 6:35pm

I don't know what the situation there is and neither do you. Only thing I can be sure of is that nobody is telling the truth.

And that the Ukraine hasn't got a single airplane left and is screaming for a western backed 'no-fly-zone' which would mean WW3.

And that the Russian army would hardly attack cities if there was no military entrenched there.

From there its not that hard to put 2 and 2 together?

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825149#Comment_118825149

From your posts it's clear you have little knowledge of the situation. Most of Ukraine's air force is intact. There's also a lot of AA entering the country, which is why Russian pilots are nervous over it's airspace.

"Only thing I can be sure of is that nobody is telling the truth" - this is a common trope. The fallacy that we don't know anything about a situation so anything can be true. Often used by conspiracy theorists to push faulty info and innuendo.

Your posts are just repeats anti-Western talking points and world views (ironically often propagated by the Kremlin). Again, no idea what this has to do with aliens and 9/11 and chemtrails and all that.

CalamariFritti · 23-03-2022 6:48pm

I'm not sure why you keep banging on about aliens. Last time I looked the thread title was 'Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?'

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825231#Comment_118825231

It's a conspiracy theory forum

Someone has posted a political/current affairs thread here, either by mistake (or on purpose).

CalamariFritti · 23-03-2022 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825277#Comment_118825277

Id say on purpose because the other threads are like angry mob with pitchforks and quite frankly full of idiots who would start WW3 in the morning.

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825149#Comment_118825149

If the Ukraine has no aircraft left how are the Russian still shooting them down.

Likewise if the Russians have total air supremacy how they still getting shot down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_losses_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

Even if you don't believe either group. The photos show downed Russian and Ukrainian only variants of aircraft. The Russian tactics do not suggest they have air supremacy. It suggests the risk from SAMs is too great to risk flying at medium height. So they are flying low level which is forcing them into range of portable missiles and guns. The airspace still seems to be contested. Which is very strange. Russians should have been able to dominate it from day one.

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 7:12pm

Ukraine wants a a no fly zone, because it brings the west into the war. That trumps all all reasons.

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825277#Comment_118825277

It would be equally at home in the creative writing forum.

Dohnjoe · 23-03-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825383#Comment_118825383

Yup, it's been suggested already as a name change for this. Problem is most can't even explain what the conspiracy theory is regardless, most just want to rant about "the West" and hint it's secretly behind whatever is in the news. Remarkably similar to Putin's day job really.

Fathom · 23-03-2022 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825068#Comment_118825068

This surrender to the invading Russians argument sounds like an expression I read about during the Vietnam War era protests in USA. Those opposed to the war would shout: “Better Red than dead.”

Although I do not agree with the USA Vietnam War, I also might not agree with the above shouted slogan, if given a different context and content (e.g., a different war). For example, was the war for Irish independence justified, or would it be “Better (Brit) than dead?” back then or today?

What about the US war for independence? Back then or today would it be “Better (Brit) than dead?” Of course, wars for independence should not be oversimplified by slogans, where there were extraordinary complexities associated with their motivations and occurrences.

Jacques Derrida warned us about such oversimplifications when he cautioned about nominalistic, either or dichotomies (e.g., “Better Red than dead”), when in nature things tend to be more complex. But try shouting about something with all its complexity at your next protest.

My relative in Ukraine would not agree with being “Better Red than dead” today. By his actions today fighting Russians, not by superficial words or slogans. His actions speak greater than his words (excuse the cliche). He does not want to surrender to the Russians and live under Putin.

Although anecdotally speaking for himself, he is surrounded with other civilian fighters, who are already training to be insurgents should Ukraine lose the conventional war now being fought. So to abuse another cliche, “it’s not over till it’s over.”

It should be remembered that both the Russians and the Americans took Afghanistan with their superior military; and where are they today?

Flinty997 · 23-03-2022 8:28pm

In Afghanistan no one stepped up when the US left. In the Ukraine they certainly stepped up.

Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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