Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

You're asking for my opinion. My preferred solution would be to have an Open category rather than a male category, and allow everyone of every sex and gender to compete there (Subject to standard PED rules, which could potentially cause an issue for Transmen if Testosterone usage is not covered by TUEs). I absolutely wouldn't want to see anyone prevented from taking part in sports as long as the rules are fair to everyone. Some sports events already do this. Some sports event results are de-facto treated this way.

You're missing the point of the sports segregated by sexes, females can already compete in the "male" category of most sports if they are good enough, it typically isn't a male category at all, any human can enter it.

They can’t though, it’s absolutely a male only category. That’s why Chris Mosier was worried about their future in sports and why they campaigned to have the IOC change their policies regarding the participation of transgender athletes.

And that’s not the point of the sports segregated by sexes either. The point of sports segregated by the sexes is so that the prestige and status in sports traditionally only played by men (and even then only a certain type of man), is maintained.

There’s no testing to determine whether or not it’s fair that men with either low or high natural testosterone levels have a biological advantage over other men for example, because however hard it has been tried, deductive reasoning is not definitive proof of an advantage so great that it necessitates a policy to exclude a whole group of people on the basis of being within a specific encdocrinological range - fancy a pork burrito if you’re a man? Enjoy. Fancy a pork burrito if you’re a woman - that’s a paddlin’, and no amount of blaming it on Mexican immigrants hygiene standards is going to be accepted as an explanation.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/15/1006622129/an-olympic-hopeful-says-her-burrito-is-to-blame-for-her-positive-drug-test

Arguing about the capabilities of a list of top 100 runners in the world all being men are nothing more tan than specious nonsense. The top 100 cheerleaders in the world are women. I know you’re interested in scholarship opportunities, so not to disappoint -

https://www.ncsasports.org/cheerleading/cheerleading-scholarships

Nobody is arguing that anyone be forced to participate in any sport they don’t want to. It’s the fact that they shouldn’t be able to determine whether or not anyone else has the same opportunity as they do to participate in sports without discrimination as to their sex or gender.

Maintaining that the restrictions are to protect integrity and fairness in womens sports is nonsense, there’s been little interest in protecting the integrity or fairness of women’s sports up to now, apart from when the physical examination was disregarded for the pseudoscientific nonsense it is, chromosome testing was disregarded as unreliable, and hormone testing is also regarded as an insufficient scientific standard to determine sex for the purposes of competing in competition.

Imagine if the same resources which are put into sex testing women were put into actual protecting athletes from abuse and actually promoting women in sports what could be achieved? Crazy idea I know, better to promote pseudoscientific nonsense as legitimate when comparing apples and oranges to deduce the nutritional value of grapes 🙄

I'm sure you didn't come down in the last shower and believe the "pork burrito" excuse from a competitive athlete :)

(I'm sure these type of mistakes happen, but nowhere near as often as the effected athletes end up claiming).

And not sure where you're going on cheerleading, cheerleading squads who compete have a mix of genders, male and female cheerleaders can get scholarships, which gender has the advantage in cheerleading? The scoring criteria also matches the fact that it's mixed gender (unlike gymnasts where the skills are differentiated due to these differences).

(you really need to cut down on the whataboutery, burrito case was a particular reach, it doesn't add anything to your posts, I'm guessing most will skip over it entirely)

Unsure of the point you're actually trying to make here other then males being great at running? (the top 100 female runners are pretty good too but will be about 10% off the top 100 people).

Anyone can play any sport they want to, if you want to compete and earn recognised medals, you need to follow the rules.

It sounds like we're past the point where self-affirmation is enough (we are, aren't we?)

Which means we're actually at the point of what level of disadvantage leads to a level playing field or finding out that the level playing field is impossible from a practical standpoint.

You're right that the current number is too small for it to have any meaningful effect at the macro level, but it can have a big impact at the micro level, particuarly on female competition right at the time when we want more females participating in sports (as there is a huge drop out when they hit puberty leading to lower levels of fitness for a lifetime) it's also when some female sports (soccer being one) are finally getting increased sponsorship and exposure (the big problem is still that females don't tend to watch other females play sport so it's primarily male viewership being targeted where there is only so many eyeballs to go around).

Right, at least you’re not still trying to convince yourself that it had anything to do with biology.

That’s the REAL point - sports competitions aren’t just based upon biology, they’re purposely configured, by humans, who make up rules and regulations as to who can and cannot participate. It doesn’t matter that the 100 best runners in the world are men, it doesn’t matter that the one million best runners in the world are men, that has nothing to do with prohibiting anyone from participating on the grounds of either gender or sex, they can still participate, and they do.

They’re just paid a lot less, and they aren’t held in the same esteem as the mens games, because men are permitted to do things women aren’t - the rules for men and women are different, whereas there’s nothing to stop the rules from being the same for all participants regardless of their sex or gender.

They don’t even have to have the same training or diet regime, and many of them don’t. They don’t even have to be amateur or professional, and many of them aren’t, so the idea that the 10000000000 best athletes in the world are men? Who gives a fcuk?

@joeguevara

Since you've read some 'conclusive' studies could you clarify exactly what is meant by the conclusion that 'transwomen don't have an advantage', in respect of the following point :

There are 2 elements to sporting success

1. The innate talent one has for the sport, honed by practising/training for that sport
2. In physical sports, the physical attributes one possess, which aids point 1

Is the conclusive conclusion you speak of referring to point 1 or point 2? Or both? I admit I haven't gone though the studies you've linked to me earlier with a fine tooth comb. Actually, that was just an opinion piece on a report, but not the report.

I can see how the conclusion could be valid for point 1, but not point 2. The devil is in the detail.

In case that's not clear, here's a real world example. Serena Williams may very well be just as talented and skilled as Rodger Federer. She may even be more talented and skilled than Fed. However point 2 would/could swing the difference as to who would win. And who wins in sport is so utterly the point.

It would be quite brave of you to say physical differences between men and woman are irrelevant. If that were the case in sport it would be the case generally in life. All those men pumping iron in the gym, all those muscles, but doesn't give them any advantage physically over anyone at all, even other men.

edit: typo

you've made that point a couple times, how does letting trans women compete with women negatively affect any organisations income?

It’s a very good point. But I will say that I never said anything was conclusive, i said that all of the studies so far are inconclusive as to advantages of transgender people over others but I take your point.

But I don’t fully agree with your point 2. You are suggesting (and correct me if I’m wrong) that strength aids point 1. Firstly as far as I know lean muscle mass is lost to a large degree after 2 years of hormone therapy. Secondly the hormone replacement is an inhibitor of strength and muscle. Transgender women are in no way as strong as they would have been if they didn’t transition but in any case for most sports involved testosterone limits exist so they would not have a fair advantage in sports like weightliftkn, sprinting etc . Also it is clear that strength and muscle is not always an advantage e.g in golf huge muscle bound guys don’t always drive furthest, slight football players can be way better than beasts etc. I will admit height can be an advantage and that won’t change.

but I suppose until there is actual long period studies to determine what so many people just automatically believe it’s not fair just to completely isolate people mainly because they just don’t like transgender people. Again the participation is under 3% and apart from very few outliers transfer women are not running away with anything.

Compete in what? Running, swimming. Grand. Like how many transgender people actually compete in sport. A minuscule amount. But that minuscule amount has caused a backlash of hate and vitriol against a group of people that don’t even compete in it. Twitter is obsessed with it, huge swathes of people are denigrating transgender people, (I do admit that a considerable amount of transgender advocates are equally as toxic), comedians are doing whole specials on them, Graham linehan devoted years of his life and thousands of tweets trolling transgender people, like for what, nothing.

There has literally been no impact in female sports. If people were really worried about the adverse impact in sports they would be discussing doping etc but that is dwarved By the amount of airtime transgender in sport evokes.

To answer your question, if a tiny amount of people want to compete in amateur athletics or swimming where winning is at the end of the day meaningless (and the vast majority of people don’t win anyway) let them off.

If someone is a danger to others in a prison they should be segregated and not be a threat to any person. Being a transgender person does not make them any more of a threat to others than the other criminals there.

Also, what is so abhorrent to you that a transgender person is housed with other women. Do you think that you do the crime you should only have the pleasure to see females.

As for made share toilets..like where? God help us if in the next cubicle is someone that is transgender.

As for changing rooms..where…like do you think transgender women are ogling as you get dressed. Should lesbians be excluded to. What is so wrong?

As for these sports based scholarships..well seeing as participation in sports by transgender is under 3% and the vast majority of those are not elite and not taking every valley high girls bursary. But for the tiny amount that might let’s give out about the whole lot of them because they are wrong,

People are entitled to discuss whatever their fancy is without or without personal interest. But say it as it is, it’s not about sport, it’s just anti transgender.