Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

O'Sullivan is a regular contributor to the IT and as a female athlete of some 40 years generally worth listening to and reading. This question will not be addressed by seeking refuge behind data nor belittling people's opinions. Her issue is women's sports, yours is something else entirely.

Heard Sonia on the radio last on Newstalk, interesting to hear that although she had the Irish womens record times none of her times would have got into the top 100 of the Irish mens record times. Clearly being a man is a big advantage in running and swimming, how can anyone argue otherwise?

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i wonder what feminists think of this

Ironic tho that the 'decide by biology' side of the debate are mostly silent about seeing a transgender man - bulkier due to testosterone, possibly bearded - compete against women. Apparently that's fair because 'biology'.

I don't know who is saying that. Not an expert on this, but having a beard or looking male is not the issue, it's the rules around using testosterone as a performance enhancing drug. Trans men can compete against men because they don't have an unfair advantage there so long as their T levels are in a normal range, I would think.

in general terms, no need to be so defensive

I expect each media outlet to have a fixed position on everything, because they normally do, or at least they did in the past when they dominated the media landscape, and they had their own political slant on everything from the issues of the day to opinion pieces. It’s why people know what to expect from tabloids, and they’re rarely ever disappointed, and people know what to expect from broadsheets, and they too are rarely ever disappointed. In modern times that seems to have been turned on it’s head with media outlets engaging in outrage journalism. Can you really say you haven’t noticed?

They weren’t strawmanning though, maybe you weren’t aware of them, but those are the sorts of arguments have been used to argue against transgender peoples participation in sports. That’s why the data is interesting, apart from anything else it just doesn’t support claims one way or the other, because it focuses on a single athletes performance against their previous form and the current form of their competition - it’s not a reliable indication of anything, it can’t be used to argue anything either way, but it’s data, and I do love data and statistics, I understand at the same time that other people don’t share my interest in data, which is fair enough.

The variation within both sexes is a legitimate point, that’s why the article points out that the basketball teams in both sexes, the players are much taller than among the general population - they would be, the team coaches and selectors select for height in basketball, where their height gives them a considerable advantage in basketball, and training builds on that to develop skills and coordination and all the rest of it.

The point really being made about Ledecky is that she could compete with men, but of course that would incur accusations that she is taking a man’s place etc if she were actually ever to win a competition. Be fine if she were just an exhibition, like a freak show, as long as she’s not a threat to parents who are living their lives vicariously through their own children.

I’d say she’s always worth listening to, some people would say she’s only worth listening to when her opinions agree with theirs. Which one are you?

”Seeking refuge behind data”

I actually DO believe you typed that with a straight face, just like the legacy athletes who typed with a straight face that Lia Thomas shouldn’t be permitted to participate in sports, and if they weren’t going to have that much, that any record of their participation be scrubbed from existence (thereby making it impossible to gather data), and if they couldn’t have that, that Lia Thomas be excluded from competition, but permitted to exhibit alongside what they called the highest levels of competition in women’s sports, as if they actually have any say in sports. They’re women, they don’t get a say in anything! 😏

The point being made IS that nobody is saying it, because women competing with men is not perceived as being the same threat to mens sports as the idea of men competing with women in women’s sports.

The same arguments which are being made to exclude men would also apply to women if they look like men in women’s changing rooms, etc, with the effect that the same reasoning which is used to try and exclude men, would also apply to exclude women!

Women who look like men IS an issue for a few people, and the only reason I say it’s a few people is because most people don’t appear to give a stiff one, one way or the other. Disagreement or support for their participation doesn’t appear to delineate neatly along lines of gender or sex either.

Ok so if you have a different opinion to jack it's smarmy and you're not clever, not very inclusive.

Oh don’t be such a drama queen! I was pointing out the issue with that particular line of argument - change the bloody record. It’s the same tune, only the lyrics differ each time.

I’ve never taken issue with anyone being exclusive or discriminatory, that’s entirely their own business.

When they use the same shìtty arguments to justify their prejudices and maintain discrimination in policies though, and they’re doing it on the basis of the same arguments that were debunked decades earlier and shown since then to be unwarranted scaremongering, then yes, you can bet I’ll point out that it’s a smarmy old trope that was used before their arse was as big as a shirt button to deny other people equal participation in society and maintain discrimination and prejudice.

It’s the same sort of argument is behind the idea that parents of children who are transgender, if they sought treatment for their children, would be considered child abusers.

Thankfully the Courts in Texas told them GTFO -

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/us/texas-transgender-child-abuse.html