Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Every post? You don’t half over-react to what was a simple mistake on my part. I don’t mind you basking in your moment of high-horsey though 👍

I’m not comparing apples and oranges, I just wasn’t going to be that asshole that when you make the point about increased lung capacity as a result of testosterones influence on the body, it’s not the only way lung capacity can be increased, albeit an extreme example and as we’re agreed far more complex than simply swapping out the old pair of organs for a new set.

It’s for this reason too that I make the point that in spite of a number of small scale studies, the data just isn’t credible in terms of meeting the scientific standards of sufficient evidence to support the hypothesis - it’s inconclusive, which means it’s inconclusive, as opposed to claims or implications that the science is somehow settled on the issue.

For one thing the differences between synthetic hormones and naturally occurring hormones are vast, and it’s impossible to determine the impact the introduction of synthetic hormones will have on any individual level because of so many unknowns and because of the poor understanding of how synthetic hormones interact with the body.

Focussing on the influence of naturally occurring hormones is a completely different thing, and rationalisation that the impact of testosterone in a small subset of test subjects, in order to determine policies about fairness in competition is fraught with difficulty as the people you’re dealing with are already outliers in the general population. Transgender athletes are outliers of outliers of outliers - that’s why any studies are as small-scale as they are, and I wouldn’t use the small-scale studies I’m aware of which counter the narrative of another set of small-scale studies. I don’t see anything productive in doing so when fairness in sports cannot be determined by science, and there are numerous factors involved from ethical, medical, legal and social contexts.

I’m not arguing at all with the fact that men do enjoy considerable advantages in sports, and there could be no disputing outcomes under current rules in sports, which is why relying on historical data that doesn’t apply is nothing more than a futile exercise in search of an argument.

It doesn’t justify the exclusion of transgender people from sports as a policy, and there are always going to be cases where the policy is determined to be unfit for purpose due to being so restrictive that the unintended consequences are that it excludes women on the basis that they do not conform to very restrictive criteria - athletes who do not enjoy considerable social advantages that other athletes have in their favour which are outside of consideration on the basis that these advantages are taken for granted. A case in point being the US trouncing Thailand in the World Cup, and pretty much nobody batted an eyelid. The winners of course naturally concluded that it was a fair competition -

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48600795

It’s a far more admirable character trait to be able to accept loss and pledge to do better, than it is to be a sore loser and claim you were robbed, as if you were ever entitled to the win.

I have absolutely no idea what the hell you are even trying to say...

Why was there a link to a womens football match as well? What has that got to do with anything?

Just to clear it up for you though, I am not, nor have I said, that testosterone will increase lung capacity. What I did say is that males have on average larger lung capacity, which is a scientific fact. You can't even argue that one, but you will type some long winded post trying to.

During puberty in males, height, weight and LUNG CAPACITY increases, it doesn't to it to the same degree in females. You can not undo that, no blockers will reduce the size of your organs or reduce your height. And what causes this? Testosterone production through puberty in males.

Do you get it now? The impact of test on the male body is profound and long lasting, it makes irreversible changes to a males body.

What the hell is going on, how am I taking the piss by pointing biological facts?

Are you really wondering why no one was crying foul for a woman's football football match? Probably because it was the womans World Cup champions playing against a bunch oh nobodies, and it has NOTHING to do with transgender issues, at all, in the slightest.

And your link at the end, yet again, what has that got to do with anything? You are just rambling off on things and it legit makes no sense whatsoever. You might want to do a refresher course in biology.

Your head is firmly in the sand, reinforced by concrete if you actually think that science is inconclusive of the effects of hormones on the body. Testosterone is the anabolic go-to for body builds of both sexes, why is that? Because it was a profound, studies and provable effect on the body in that it grows, hence the term anabolic.

If you legit think that science is unsure, your ideology is clouding your judgement on actual evidence. Nothing anyone in here says would change your mind when it comes to it, that much I can see.

I really do apologise if I was disrespectful. It was certainly. I can see how it could have been interpreted like that but I would be the biggest hypocrite if I was intentionally disrespectful to a group of people while saying people shouldn’t disrespect another group.

i was thinking about alternative view that is the exact opposite approach to what I said earlier. I made the point that it was such a small percentage of transgender athletes that impact is small and just accept and move on. I never considered that equally the vast majority of transgender women do not compete in sport. Like it or not they are being impacted because of the backlash (right or wr ong) caused by transgender women competing.

Which is dreadfully unfair. I think when there are debates sometimes people have their views and there is very little middle ground on it. But the appointed or self appointed public and media advocates can cause a lot more harm which damages real dialogue which can action change for the good.

Equally knee jerk policy changes that are shoehorned into a clunky instrument give the illusion of inclusivity and positive diversity but can incite people who had no prima facile concerns but then reach a ‘fcuck this, I’m sick of I’ll thought out decisions that are forced rather than agreed.

So in reality the options ‘ban competitive sport’ not going to happen

allow transgender compete without restrictions - there are issues with that

Disallow transgender women complete in any womens sport - that doesn’t seem if there are no impacts

Allow participation with robust barriers such as hormones levels, lean muscle mass level if it’s strength based, an acceptable timeframe from transition To competing with adequate psychological as well as physical assessment to determine if the person is truly transgender or a failed male athlete who thinks that they Dan succceed here.

The benefit of the last is that studies can then be undertaken by independent and unbiased experts so that real decisions can be fact based.

Rushing into a decision simply because we live in a fast food, immediate gtatification world that could shape female sports forever helps nobody,

What you seem to be saying there is that there are so few trans people in sport that any unfairness in so rare that we should ignore it for the sake of 'inclusion'.

The numbers don't matter, it's the principle of the thing that matters.

Twitter might not be so obsessed about it as you say if people like Sharron Daives didn't receive death threats.

And anyway, I' glad you used the term 'minuscule' because my argument is primarily against Trans ideology, of which specific issues like sports and bathrooms are just symptom issues of that ideology.

Specifically I'm against the 'platforming' of trans, such that everyone should be cognizant of trans, that one can't assume one's gender by their outward appearance, including assuming the gender of a newborn. That gender is inherently fluid, and trans people aren't in any way an 'other'. That when one's gender even does 'align' with the body they were born with, that that's still somehow due to the fluidity of gender. As if it could have gone either way. And I'm against the changing of language to be inclusive of trans, such as saying people with a cervix instead of using the term women, which is how JKR got in such hot water, with a few death threats of her own.

No, nature did not intend one's gender not to allign with their body, if there's such a thing at all, and those that feel their body doesn't align, is minuscule. One could argue that nature didn't intend homosexuality either, but I've never personally argued the 'born this way' argument. Because I don't believe it actually. I believe there is personal agency involved, in both issues.

an awful lot of not very much in that article, but I do agree with this

I can guarantee you that everyone getting their knickers in a twist about Lia Thomas have no clue that 27 official records were made during the championship she competed in - none of which were broken by her. If people really cared about women's achievements at this championship, this is basic information they would know.

Without diminishing her performance at the championship, it is far from the most remarkable. The idea that she 'dominated' are therefore ill-founded and taken out of context. If anything, Katie Douglass, a cis woman, who broke 18 out of those 27 records, dominated the championship, no doubt due to the advantages she had over her fellow competitors.

If people were really interested and cared about women's sport, surely that would be a more notable thing to highlight in the media. Yet all we see are articles, posts and negative comments about Lia Thomas. 

In fact, Lia Thomas didn't place very high at all in her other events, placing 5th and 8th respectively - but of course that never gets any coverage. The only reason Lia Thomas is getting this much coverage in the first place is because she's trans - not because she's dominated or done exceptionally well.

Even if she did remarkably well, she still would not deserve to be questioned and accused of cheating. She followed all the right regulation surrounding trans athletes and had every right to compete and achieve something, just like every other woman at that championship. 

She had the right to compete, and she also has the right to win and be celebrated for it. Trans athletes do not deserve to be constantly accused of 'cheating' or an 'unfair advantage', when they are competing within accepted guidelines placed. She did well in her sport and she deserves praise for it.

It doesn't really matter what people here or on twitter think about it - the regulations are placed by professionals and experts in the field, based on research and best practice. The regulations have evolved and will continue to evolve - but they must never be based on prejudice and exclusion, which much of the criticism from people online is. 

It's astonishing how almost anyone suddenly becomes an expert on sport and performance when it's related to trans people, while hardly caring or supporting women's sport in the first place. 

It's also astonishing how people do not recognise how the media is egging this debate on without any merit at all, and they're all falling for it and taking part in the outrage, increasing their engagement and clicking their articles. Congratulations, you've made them money by taking part in this moral panic manufactured by them.

There are so many challenges that women face in sport - including lack of funding, lack of access and the incredible amounts of emotional and sexual abuse that they suffer at the hands of coaches, trainers, families and others involved in their career. 

So let's focus on the real issues facing women in sport, instead of manufactured outrage about trans athletes, who've been quietly competing in sport for decades without issues. If it was an issue that trans women were dominating women's sport, we would've already seen evidence of that. The fact is that we haven't.

LGBT people still face tremendous amounts of obstacles in sport, and have to overcome prejudice and stigma. They deserve to be celebrated for who they are, instead of being demonised and stigmatised for doing something they love, and something they have every right to do.

O'Sullivan is a regular contributor to the IT and as a female athlete of some 40 years generally worth listening to and reading. This question will not be addressed by seeking refuge behind data nor belittling people's opinions. Her issue is women's sports, yours is something else entirely.

Heard Sonia on the radio last on Newstalk, interesting to hear that although she had the Irish womens record times none of her times would have got into the top 100 of the Irish mens record times. Clearly being a man is a big advantage in running and swimming, how can anyone argue otherwise?

%

i wonder what feminists think of this

Ironic tho that the 'decide by biology' side of the debate are mostly silent about seeing a transgender man - bulkier due to testosterone, possibly bearded - compete against women. Apparently that's fair because 'biology'.

I don't know who is saying that. Not an expert on this, but having a beard or looking male is not the issue, it's the rules around using testosterone as a performance enhancing drug. Trans men can compete against men because they don't have an unfair advantage there so long as their T levels are in a normal range, I would think.

in general terms, no need to be so defensive

I expect each media outlet to have a fixed position on everything, because they normally do, or at least they did in the past when they dominated the media landscape, and they had their own political slant on everything from the issues of the day to opinion pieces. It’s why people know what to expect from tabloids, and they’re rarely ever disappointed, and people know what to expect from broadsheets, and they too are rarely ever disappointed. In modern times that seems to have been turned on it’s head with media outlets engaging in outrage journalism. Can you really say you haven’t noticed?

They weren’t strawmanning though, maybe you weren’t aware of them, but those are the sorts of arguments have been used to argue against transgender peoples participation in sports. That’s why the data is interesting, apart from anything else it just doesn’t support claims one way or the other, because it focuses on a single athletes performance against their previous form and the current form of their competition - it’s not a reliable indication of anything, it can’t be used to argue anything either way, but it’s data, and I do love data and statistics, I understand at the same time that other people don’t share my interest in data, which is fair enough.

The variation within both sexes is a legitimate point, that’s why the article points out that the basketball teams in both sexes, the players are much taller than among the general population - they would be, the team coaches and selectors select for height in basketball, where their height gives them a considerable advantage in basketball, and training builds on that to develop skills and coordination and all the rest of it.

The point really being made about Ledecky is that she could compete with men, but of course that would incur accusations that she is taking a man’s place etc if she were actually ever to win a competition. Be fine if she were just an exhibition, like a freak show, as long as she’s not a threat to parents who are living their lives vicariously through their own children.

I’d say she’s always worth listening to, some people would say she’s only worth listening to when her opinions agree with theirs. Which one are you?

”Seeking refuge behind data”

I actually DO believe you typed that with a straight face, just like the legacy athletes who typed with a straight face that Lia Thomas shouldn’t be permitted to participate in sports, and if they weren’t going to have that much, that any record of their participation be scrubbed from existence (thereby making it impossible to gather data), and if they couldn’t have that, that Lia Thomas be excluded from competition, but permitted to exhibit alongside what they called the highest levels of competition in women’s sports, as if they actually have any say in sports. They’re women, they don’t get a say in anything! 😏

The point being made IS that nobody is saying it, because women competing with men is not perceived as being the same threat to mens sports as the idea of men competing with women in women’s sports.

The same arguments which are being made to exclude men would also apply to women if they look like men in women’s changing rooms, etc, with the effect that the same reasoning which is used to try and exclude men, would also apply to exclude women!

Women who look like men IS an issue for a few people, and the only reason I say it’s a few people is because most people don’t appear to give a stiff one, one way or the other. Disagreement or support for their participation doesn’t appear to delineate neatly along lines of gender or sex either.

Ok so if you have a different opinion to jack it's smarmy and you're not clever, not very inclusive.

Oh don’t be such a drama queen! I was pointing out the issue with that particular line of argument - change the bloody record. It’s the same tune, only the lyrics differ each time.

I’ve never taken issue with anyone being exclusive or discriminatory, that’s entirely their own business.

When they use the same shìtty arguments to justify their prejudices and maintain discrimination in policies though, and they’re doing it on the basis of the same arguments that were debunked decades earlier and shown since then to be unwarranted scaremongering, then yes, you can bet I’ll point out that it’s a smarmy old trope that was used before their arse was as big as a shirt button to deny other people equal participation in society and maintain discrimination and prejudice.

It’s the same sort of argument is behind the idea that parents of children who are transgender, if they sought treatment for their children, would be considered child abusers.

Thankfully the Courts in Texas told them GTFO -

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/us/texas-transgender-child-abuse.html