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Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    So that half crazed lynch mob that couldn't tell their arse from their elbow over in the Russia thread is what you would call 'normal scrutiny'?

    The US are being blamed for a lot of stuff because they cause a lot of stuff. They are without a doubt the most aggressive nation since WW2 with countless coups and wars under their belt.

    Have people such short memories? The illegal, fabricated absolute disaster with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties that is the 2nd Iraq war? The WMD lies? The absolute clusterfuck they left behind? To name just the biggest one in the last 20 years? Who are the US to accuse anyone of illegally attacking a sovereign nation?

    And of course they are up to their neck in this one too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    What do you think about Cheerful S's claims? Do you agree with them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I wouldn't keep track of Cheerfuls claims why would I? Also I don't see how it is relevant or on topic what I might think about them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Why are you referring to a thread 33k posts and 1.4 million views as a "half crazed lynch mob"?

    "And of course they are up to their neck in this one too."

    Is your claim. Yet when asked questions on this you dodged them. Are you here to discuss this or are you here soapbox and then have an infantile tantrum when your world views are questioned?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I'd be happy to discuss this if it would actually stay on topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You realize Putin engineered the Gulf Wars. Iraq invaded Kuwait in response to that threat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    What, Putin made the US and Uk invent those lies about weapons of mass destruction? And then invade Iraq and turn the whole region into a clusterfuck for decades? With the birth of ISIS and the rest of it and god knows how many casualties?

    Putin staged all that? Please explain.

    AFAIK Putin came into office what? 2000? The gulf wars were 10 years before that, no?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Sure. Putin is the decision maker in Russia, so which US president made him take the unilateral decision to launch the invasion of Ukraine and how?

    And please, no tenuous links or out-of-context history, an example of this would be: "After WW1 France created the Versailles treaty and passed huge war reparations on Germany which fermented the rise of Hitler, therefore really, France caused WW2."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Yes cleverly arranged so no one would suspect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    @CalamariFritti - So that half crazed lynch mob that couldn't tell their arse from their elbow over in the Russia thread is what you would call 'normal scrutiny'?

    The US are being blamed for a lot of stuff because they cause a lot of stuff.


    @Dohnjoe - Why are you referring to a thread 33k posts and 1.4 million views as a "half crazed lynch mob"?


    Because he's an out and out USA basher who thinks "his opinion" is 100% correct, and hundreds of different posters in the Russia thread are 100% wrong. The Conspiracy Theories thread is the only place on Boards that he can air his distorted views without fear of being shouted down and put in his place by a couple of dozen folk.

    The sad thing is that he truly believes by going on and on and on and on about the US did this, the US did that, in almost EVERY POST he makes... that people are actually taking notice of him, and he's going to change their viewpoint. Absolutely NO-ONE is taking a blind bit of notice of his repetitive, misguided diatribe which I might add is wholly disrespectful to the hundreds of innocent children who've died and the millions of civilians who've been displaced and had their lives destroyed. Blaming the USA for what has happened is just simply despicable.

    He cant seem to understand that whatever the USA have done in the past, it in no way justifies the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. But let him waste his time on countless more posts telling us the USA are to blame for everything. Effectively he's just talking to a wall.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Then why are you complaining about people's responses to him and his points?

    If you don't know anything about his claims to the point that you have no comment on them, why did you argue that the points brought up against him were inadequate or unfair?


    If you think commenting on them would be off topic, why do you believe his posts are on topic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    More like defending France against Germany caused the Germans to invade it. France should really have just surrendered the country without a shot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Was I complaining to peoples responses to him and his points? I didnt think I was.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yup:

    And:

    As Dohnjoe points out, Cheerful is a prolific poster who very often engages in amazing mental gymnastics to defend a lot of counter factual and insane things.

    It's why he's so pro Putin.


    You should perhaps actually read the posts in the thread before commenting on it and the response people make to stuff on the thread.


    Though personally I think the sudden cause of blindness you've been struck by, and your sudden unwillingness to comment on other posters is a bit suspect...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    No links to ancient history required. Just last autumn and the massive NATO manoeuvre held in the Ukraine and the Black Sea.

    And secondly when Selensky was given a forum at the MSC only a few weeks ago receiving standing ovations for amongst other things his demands on nuclear rearmament of the Ukraine.

    Just those two points. How were they going to be perceived by Russia would you say? And would you say they were intentional actions or purely incidental and nothing to do with Russia whatsoever?

    And yes I view NATO as a mere vehicle for US strategic interests



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Well to be fair I wasn't defending any of the actual claims he made simply the way his sources were dismissed by matter of principle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Now @KingMob, I could turn the table if I thought that was a fair thing to do. I could ask what you think about Flinty's claims. Do you agree with them?

    But I won't. You don't need to answer that. Just making a point.

    Which btw is not me saying I agree or disagree with Cheerful. That wouldn't be fair on him either. I may well agree with some of them.

    Again just making a point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    As common with these threads he drops links without understanding them or in some cases reading them. Often his link doesn't agree with him at all.

    I can only assume (as you have done here) he thinks no one else will check them out or understand them either.

    If someone posts nonsensical stuff they either don't understand it, or are doing it deliberately and will be called out on it.

    Ultimately they'll be put on everyone's ignore list.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Every one include Russia have done exercises all over the place and only Russia have invaded.

    Doing excerises is normal military practice.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/09/23/zapad-2021-what-we-learned-from-russias-massive-military-drills-a75127



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yea, you see, it doesn't really work like that if you're not answering my original question.

    And yea, so far Flinty's claims and points have seemed pretty reasonable to me. Is there any specific ones you'd like me to comment on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    And yes I view NATO as a mere vehicle for US strategic interests

    That makes no sense. It's primarily for the defense of Europe and member states.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Well I thought the last one speaks for itself. That Putin who took power in 2000 staged the gulf wars in 1990. Because 'no one would suspect'.

    I mean technically it may not be impossible. He was KGB before 1990 and naturally that will allow all sorts of conspiracy theories about him. But its not a claim I heard anywhere and it appears a rather wild claim to put it mildly. Let me quote wikipedia with regards to Putins position in 1990.

    In May 1990, Putin was appointed as an advisor on international affairs to the mayor of Leningrad Anatoly Sobchak. In a 2017 interview with Oliver Stone, Putin said that he resigned from the KGB in 1991, following the coup against Mikhail Gorbachev, as he did not agree with what had happened and did not want to be part of the intelligence in the new administration.[47] According to Putin's statements in 2018 and 2021, he may have worked as a private taxi driver to earn extra money, or considered such a job.

    Again only making a point. You cannot expect someone to back someone else unequivocally. I don't know Cheerful and I don't know his past or his entire stance on everything. Its a mad thing to be asking of anyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I took that as him being a big sarcastic and poking fun at your claims. If that's not the case, then I don't agree with that claim.

    Your point seems to be that people are incapable of commenting on other people's opinions. That's a bit silly.


    You commented on people's responses to him and his silly claims on this thread.

    You aren't commenting on Cheerfuls posts either because you didn't bother to read them before complaining about people's response to him. Or you did read them and are feigning ignorance about them.

    Asking your opinion on his claims and your continued refusal to actually state it show that your complaints aren't very valid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    After the fall of the iron curtain NATOs continued existence made no sense. There was nothing left to defend against.

    In the early nineties Russia had begun to slip firmly into the hand of commercial and other US interests. When Putin took power in 2000 I remember his speech in the German parliament that could not have been interpreted as anything but an outstretched hand. He suggested Russia membership in NATO and a close European partnership also. Despite NATO having already begun its eastern expansion against all assurance.

    Why was this being rebuffed and NATO expanded even further? There was no hostile Russia left to defend against and the much better alternative would have been to integrate Russia and end this cr@p for once and all. It would have been certainly in Europe's interest.

    I will answer my own question. It was rebuffed because it wasn't in Americas interest. A sovereign Europe in a commercial partnership with Russia would have weakened the US position significantly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Okay, but you didn't address the question, so I'll ask again "Putin is the decision maker in Russia, so which US president made him take the unilateral decision to launch the invasion of Ukraine and how?"

    To address what you did write. Armies, including the Russian military, have maneuvers all the time. NATO, which is a defensive alliance, has been having exercises since 1951.

    Secondly, Zelensky gave a speech on an agreement Russia signed in 1994 that it wouldn't attack Ukraine. It attacked 5 days later after building up forces for weeks. After years of hybrid warfare conducted against Ukraine by Putin. Again, who in the US is behind that?



This discussion has been closed.
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