Can a Doctor Refuse to See Unvaccinated Patients (non covid related)?

androlyn · 24-03-2022 4:08pm #1

A friend of mine informed today that her family doctor (of 5 years) has now refused to see her anymore unless she gets her child vaccinated.

Her child is at the age of her first round of vaccines and my friend is not willing to get her child vaccinated because of several concerns, with not only the vaccine but of her child's current health. I don't remember us being a nation of pro & anti vax prior to covid and I was shocked to hear this. She confided in me, because she knew I was unvaccinated, not by choice, my mother never brought me as a child and when I was older I never thought "oh, I better get vaccinated" - and in all my 30 years of life, I've never had my vaccination status come into question, nor would I have ever thought about it (until covid came along), so the situation seems off to me.

Please, please, without judgement or a debate on vaccines, is her doctor within his right to refuse to see her child?

24-03-2022 4:17pm

Presumably it's a private consultation? If not, then I assume that HSE would insist on the GP seeing the child.

See page 16 of this link. https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/news-and-publications/publications/information-for-doctors/guide-to-professional-conduct-and-ethics-for-registered-medical-practitioners.pdf

24-03-2022 4:23pm

From the GP’s point of view it sounds like the person is taking non-medical advice on health. If the GP is recommending childhood vaccines, I can’t really see how there can be a “health reason” for them not to be taken. They’re not going to put someone’s health at risk.

If you called an electrician out and your wiring kept shorting out but you decided that you’d take advice of Billybob10384847483 on Twitter who feels that it’s because of bad wiring karma, instead of the electrician, I think they might tell you where to go to.

There are a lot of non medical people who are suddenly experts on immunology and vaccinations and topics that were previously as boring as house wiring are now highly politicised.

KieferFan69 · 24-03-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829719#Comment_118829719

you say nonsense. It’s no business of the GP whether a child is vaccinated, or from whom parents take their advice. The doctor here sounds like he is taking a political position when political decisions are certainly not why people pay his cheques, Providing health care is the reason for that

I fear this is a very dark lane

24-03-2022 4:41pm

What do you mean it’s “no business of a GP whether a child is vaccinated”

GPs have a very serious duty of care. It’s absolutely their business.

The dark lane we are going down here is paranoid conspiracy theories being accepted as fact.

Mrs OBumble · 24-03-2022 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829801#Comment_118829801

The GP action is closing off the route of communication. It's not a smart approach.

But the question here is whether it's legal.

jam_mac_jam · 24-03-2022 4:54pm

The doctor needs to protect their other patients as well, so rather than it being political it could be to protect others in the waiting room such as babies or the elderly that may be impacted by diseases like measles.

If the patient isn't going to listen to the doctors medical advise then the doctor is perfectly right that they should look for another doctor. In terms of medical advise I doubt a doctor can be compelled to take on any patient legally.

KieferFan69 · 24-03-2022 5:01pm

sounds like some of you grew up in the times of wooden cars where the doctor and priest were always right and needed to be obeyed otherwise you were scolded. The fact this doctor refuses to see this patient is nonsense, either irrational fear or politically motivated

I would choose not to see this ignorant doctor anyway, gps are ten a penny.

One eyed Jack · 24-03-2022 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Please, please, without judgement or a debate on vaccines, is her doctor within his right to refuse to see her child?

In really simple terms - yes, a medical professional is within their right to refuse to see anyone provided they have a legitimate reason for their refusal. It doesn’t just come up in the context of vaccination, it comes up in numerous other contexts. The person in question can of course make a complaint to the Medical Council, who will assess whether there is any merit to the complaint -

https://www.healthcomplaints.ie/gp/

cruizer101 · 24-03-2022 5:04pm

@KieferFan69 GP's are ten a penny??

You are obviously having a laugh, there is a massive shortage of GP's with many people having to look far outside their locality to find a GP that will take them on, very few are accepting new patients.

Jim2007 · 24-03-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Nobody is obligated to do business with you, be it a doctor, another professional or company. There are rules which must be applied when they do decide to do business with you and certain organisations are mandated to provided the public with certain services. If the doctor is providing services to you in his own capacity as opposed to on behalf of an agency such as the health services etc... he is free to make up his own mind whom he wants to treat. And even in cases where a professional is required to provide services, if you decide not to follow their advice, then there are also provisions allowing them to refuse to deal with you.

Jim2007 · 24-03-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829782#Comment_118829782

The dark lane as you put it would be attempting to force professionals to provide services against their advice and believes, they too have rights surprising as that may seem to some people. Which simply is not going to happen.

Dav010 · 24-03-2022 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829916#Comment_118829916

Actually they aren’t ten a penny. In fact there is a huge shortage of GPs in Ireland currently, people struggle in many parts of the country to find a GP Clinic which will allow them to register.

To answer the op’s question, where there is a breakdown in the GP-Patient relationship, then yes, the GP can advise the patient that they may be better suited to another Clinic. There may well be more to this than just vaccination status, from experience, anti vaxers can get very animated when health professionals try and tell them about the benefits of vaccines and some refuse to wear masks in the Clinic even though it is required. So they are invited to leave.

TooTired123 · 24-03-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829916#Comment_118829916

I assume you’re being sarcastic here. GPs are ten a penny??

TooTired123 · 24-03-2022 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238704/can-a-doctor-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients-non-covid-related

Current legislation allows for any healthcare setting to refuse admission to an unvaxxed person.

The GP has to protect the other patients him/herself and the other staff.

GPs remove patients from their “list” all the time for different reasons.

Us your friend in receipt of a medical card? If she is then she has to go to 3 other GP practices and ask to be taken on as a patient. If 3 refuse then she needs to write or email medical card and tell them the names of those that refused. Medical card will take it from there.

coylemj · 24-03-2022 7:08pm

OP said: Her child is at the age of her first round of vaccines and my friend is not willing to get her child vaccinated because of several concerns, with not only the vaccine but of her child's current health

Sorry, but that is just a cloud of evasive BS. Why is the child not vaccinated?

If the mother is making the decision (to not accept the vaccine) because of 'her child's current health' then it sounds like she is making a decision that is based on 'her own research' but which should be left to the medical professionals i.e. her GP. And if she is unilaterally making medical decisions on behalf of her child and against professional medical advice then then I can see why the GP is showing her the door.

She can't have it both ways. If she wants the assorted quacks and conspiracy theorists on Facebook to guide her in looking after her child's health then let her live with the consequences but I don't see why the GP should expose his other patients to the various childhood diseases that that child will bring into his waiting room.

breezy1985 · 24-03-2022 7:11pm

Oh I just knew clicking in this would be a "new" account

hullaballoo · 25-03-2022 6:31pm

Whatever about the antivaxx nonsense...

When were cars ever wooden?

mondeoman72 · 25-03-2022 10:44pm

I am a first responder. I can refuse and would not treat somebody if I was concerned for my own health.

Rule 1. We have a person needing assistance. Do not become a 2nd person needing assistance.......

Dav010 · 25-03-2022 11:05pm

Though being a 1st responder is admirable, you are not bound by the same code of ethics as a GP, and the repercussions for refusing to treat a patient are not the same.

In response to an earlier post by TooTired who stated that GPs remove patients from their lists all the time, it is actually quite rare and there must be a good reason. Patients/parents often make bad choices, but that is their right. The decision to get vaccinated is a personal one and that alone is highly unlikely to be the only reason for a GP to deny service/remove a patient from their list. GPs see sick patients all the time and would not be concerned enough about vaccination status to delist a patient, in fact GPs have reason to advise some patients against vaccination. Also, I’d appreciate the link to the specific legislation relating to GPs refusing admission to unvaccinated patients, this would seem at odds with the duty of care a GP has for their patients which of course is not contingent on vaccination status. Is it possible you are mistaking this for the requirement to wear a mask in healthcare facilities?

I don’t want to speculate on why the OPs friend was refused treatment at his/her GPs clinic, what I can say is that I share/own a Clinic with GPs and without doubt the most common cause for a patient being delisted is because they are abusive to the staff or GP, the second most common is a breakdown in the relationship to the point where trust is lost and the patient would be better served by seeking another perspective on their needs.

mondeoman72 · 25-03-2022 11:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836596#Comment_118836596

I kind of agree, and your example is understandable, but in ANY situation, the first person to be taken care of, is yourself. If for whatever reason, you do not feel safe or you feel in danger, you are perfectly entitled to not treat. One casualty is enough. Is it in the code of ethics that a patient has a bigger right to treatment than your own personal safety ?

Dav010 · 26-03-2022 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836885#Comment_118836885

I think if healthcare professionals applied that logic, it would severely limit our ability to provide care to patients. Vaccination neither gives immunity to Covid nor prevents transmission, so applying a policy to refuse care for unvaccinated would be an odd decision, I’ve never heard of it and would presume that it would be a challenge to defend if a complaint was made to the medical council.

Sleeper12 · 26-03-2022 12:20am

I can't leave my dogs into doggie day care, kennels etc without proof of shots. My daughter has worked in crèches where children without vacation aren't allowed to join. I don't see why doctors are any different

mondeoman72 · 26-03-2022 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118836959#Comment_118836959

I will check with our EMTs and RGN's and let you know tomorrow. Bit late now to be texting them. I do know that all training I have done, including PHECC certifications, put safety priority for yourself as absolute number one.