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Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    That isn't the question being asked here. It's "how do we significantly blame the US for this?". The responses have not exactly been convincing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    But people wouldn’t expect anything progressive from China, they don’t even hold the same values as us, why would you expect them to be on the side of “freedom” when they have their own plans to conquer some place. That’s one of the things separating the west from autocracies and dictators, our beliefs that countries have a right to choose democracy and freedom.

    So everybody turns to USA for guidance and to see what the rules are. You could probably call them back the “dictators of democracy” because if they disagree with anybody on something , they will do what they want to get things done their way.

    It suited Putin to undermine USA and see it become more insular and divided because to be frank the USA is the only thing standing in the way of more nefarious regimes promoting and expanding their own chaos. The USA is far from perfect or philanthropic but it’s probably the best beacon of hope for democracy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything , nor do I need to, the object is discussion.

    And that’s not the question, the question is did they play a negative role in events that led to the crisis. I’ve seen nothing posted that proves it one way or another which means debate can rumble on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I don’t see how any of this is relevant, you are making a load of statements I haven’t refuted or argued against. I think the USA are the better super power to have as top dogs of global influence but I don’t think they are completely philanthropic in how they conduct their strategies.

    Ok so your comment that Putin was not worried about NATO, what’s the thinking behind this absolute stance?

    Somebody mentioned hitler , I was thinking about this. Some might argue that the west created Hitler as an unintended consequence of economic sanctions against Germany after WW1. Doesn’t mean Hitler was the fault of the allies but the same question as here arises, where decisions made and things ignored that could of prevented Hitler?



  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    Did I mention you by name? Touch of paranoia there methinks.

    My comments were actually aimed indirectly at the squid.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I was chatting with other posters, I just assumed you were trying to be part of the conversation as you jumped right in the middle of it. How was I supposed to know who you were talking about?

    Why dont you quote or reference the person so they know you are talking to them and they can at least reply?



  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    @Drumpot - Why dont you quote or reference the person so they know you are talking to them and they can at least reply?


    Have done many times. His replies are legendary... totally ignore what you've said and carry on beating his own drum



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The issue though is that NATO came about and expanded because countries they were former soviet possessions wanted to be able to prevent themselves from ever being in that position ever again.

    Russia needs to look in the mirror and ask why do all of these countries keep wanting to join the EU and NATO? They’re not being forced to do so. They’re joining because they feel very threatened by Russia.

    They’re responding to their own experiences and to a very genuine threat. All the last month of conflict has shown is that they are entirely correct in that assessment and that their sovereign and security is not safe.

    The US is by no means an angel nor can’t it be assumed to be entirely benign in how it acts, but the fact remains that NATO exists because Russia is a genuine threat to its neighbours.

    If Russia were a normal benign power, it’s very likely it would be warmly welcomed to the club, especially as an EU trade partner. That was happening. There was huge optimism in Europe that Russia could be a friendly neighbour. A lot of countries went out of their way to reach out the hand of friendship only to have weird propaganda campaigns, cyber attacks, threats and even missiles pointed at them.

    If you take something like the German dependency on Russian gas. That happened because Germany was being optimistic about Russia and looking towards building neighbourly trade. The Russian government continues to behave as a paranoid, aggressive weird state and it’s unfortunate. There’s a lot that should and could have been built on, but instead we’ve reset the calendar by about 60 years and are back in some notion of empire and territorial expansion.

    Russia sees the EU as a 19th century expanding empire. The EU itself as a post war peace project.

    NATO is like having an alarm system or shared security system. It’s there because it needs to be. If there wasn’t this endless sense of threat there wouldn’t be any need for this level of militarisation.

    It’s the 21st century trying to have a conversation with the 19th.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    No because Hitler was created by the rise of fascism. That played into a fear of communism. So arguably communism created fascism, and Mussolini created fascism, and Hitler copied Mussolini. Ultimately that turned into Dictatorships. TBH communism also turned in Dictatorships, with probably the worst oppression of all.

    Putin's only interest in this is personal power. Almost nothing else makes sense. Russian doesn't have the conventional military strength it had in the past, but it didn't need it, as there were very little external threats. But a democracy on his doorstep is a threat to Putin's Political Power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Part of the reason capitalism with democracy’s work is the idea that rising tides lifts all boats. Everybody gets something, everybody’s lives improve so most people have an incentive to support and maintain the opportunity’s that can come with freedoms.

    Forcing a country into financial hardship and shame is on its own a strategy that has the potential to galvanise support of a tyrant. Hitler was not guaranteed to get into the position he attained, I don’t believe it was simply “rise of fascism and communism” that led to Hitler.

    And before anybody says “so you don’t support sanctions against Russia”, I’m not saying that at all but there is a risk sanctions won’t achieve what they want. It could be awhile, years even, before we know how effective sanctions are at putting manners on Putin.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Do you really think Germany was “being optimistic” with its gas deal with Russia? Is could say the same with England and all that Russian oligarch money in London. Most people know how corrupt things work in Russia, seems more like it suited Germany to ignore other things and have this alliance.


    In terms of how the west viewed Putin, it’s surely no surprise that Putins doing what he’s doing. He has engaged in aggressive acts against neighbours several times, he’s stated many times what he thinks of Ukraine. How could people be “optimistic that Russia would be a sound business partner” when there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary before they invaded Ukraine?

    In terms of Russia being welcome to NATO, what do you think of the statements that Russia tried to cost up to Russia early 00s and was ignored? I’m asking not because of a massive insight I have but some scholars say that Putin wanted to align with The west but there was no interest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Indeed, not just a democracy but one that could become economically successful despite it's stance against Moscow. He's spent 8 years trying to break that democracy through hybrid warfare but it's stood firm. This was the final "solution" to the Ukraine question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I would of thought Ukraine conquest was also to solidify Putins position. That pathetic Strong man leader nonsense, only so far pictures of him topless on a horse can go.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think there’s a complicated set of reasons that aren’t all conspiracy theories and corruption, but some of it is. Particularly the massive facilitation of oligarchy through certain financial centres, London being a major example but there are lots more.

    Things were a lot more forward looking and despite everything, there was a lot of hope Russia was going to just evolve or at least not be a threat.

    If you go back to 2012, NATO and Russia were even hosting minor joint exercises. It was an extremely different atmosphere.

    If you go back further than that there were all sorts of hopes and optimism about Russia becoming a lot more normal and friendly.

    Companies went into Russia because they saw opportunities, but also because they were being optimistic and not seeing a massive issue with an impending authoritarian dictatorship.

    Germany and plenty of others bought Russian energy. Finland, Turkey and several others have bought Russian VVER nuclear reactors and western companies have worked with them to adapt and improve safety.

    Nokia (and most of the companies it absorbed), Ericsson, Siemens, and countless other European and American companies worked in Russia, sold them infrastructural equipment etc.

    Closer to home Aer Cap and others leased billions of euro worth of aircraft to Russian airlines and Aughinish Alumina is Russian owned since the early 2000s. ESB used Russian coal at Moneypoint.

    ESA, NASA and others worked with the Russian space agency and Russian companies, on really amazing projects like the ISS, missions to Mars etc etc

    My point is that while Russia is undoubtedly highly corrupt a lot of companies, organisation, politicians and others genuinely did try to build relations and open things up and normalise things. They didn’t look at it through a lens of paranoia. A lot of normal Russians did the same.

    However, the Russian government seems to spend its time plotting, scheming, imagining hostile empires at its borders and pointing missiles at neighbours, while hosting and conducting cyber attacks, spewing weird propaganda and deliberately trying to destabilise countries.

    We have unfortunately been taken for a long ride by an authoritarian regime that seems to want us all either under its control or dead. Every outreached arm seems to be met with a punch in the face.

    I think we’ve been far too soft and ignored and fed the elephant in the room because of primarily optimism and a desire to normalise things.

    The west is doing exactly the same with China - investing, kick starting and trading and it seems rather like it’s another authoritarian regime that takes a very dim view of democracy and western values.

    Be as cynical as you like, but democratic systems work and there’s a lot to be said for stable democratic countries in terms of quality of life, freedoms and prosperity.

    Trade has to come with T&Cs and willingness to accept basic values and freedoms. Otherwise, what’s the world going to be like in a couple of decades? Something like the 19th century with high technology? Maybe we all end up nuked or some unimaginably big scale threat emerges.

    I mean what’s next for Russia? Continue wallowing in the myth of propaganda and threatening people, sort of like a big North Korea? I can’t really see that ending well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    The question is not did it create Hitler. But did it create Mussolini. Because Hitler admired Mussolini and his political strategies, fascism, etc and copied him when he was starting out. Mussolini came before Hitler. Mussolini was in power before Hitler. Hitler couldn't get where he got without fascism.

    Really looking for the West for excuse for Putin. When in fact the issue here is Communism/Dictatorship vs Democracy. The Ukraine has simply chosen Democracy. But that doesn't work for Putin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I was thinking more did the penal reparations put on Germany make it more likely that a Hitler could get to the top (that a country might turn to a tyrant in desperation) , not specifically make it happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I would agree with alot of that and much of it is reasonable but to you think that this Ukraine situation has totally blindsided everybody? Like there was no way of (we will use Germany and the reliance on gas) looking at Putin invading crimea and other acts of aggression and working out that closer reliance leaves you more vulnerable to Putins whims?

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-germany-deal-nord-stream-2-pipeline-draws-ire-lawmakers-both-countries-2021-07-21/

    There was strong pushback from usa about the pipeline , particularly how it might impact Ukraine but Germany didn’t seem to care.

    To be frank, you seem to understand more of this then I do, but I’d be surprised if countries didn’t have a good idea of Putins nefarious behaviours and the potential for something as big as the gas project being used against others.


    Including interfering with elections and all sorts of cyber stuff. He’s practically at James Bond villian status at this stage.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think it did blindside a lot of people to be quite honest. A lot of European countries have a tendency to normalise Russia for trade and there’s a long history (because it worked) of trying to bring people into the club by trading and interconnection. That’s always been a huge aspect of postwar European diplomacy and soft power.

    A lot of people also saw the US position as perhaps trying to sell gas rather than be genuinely concerned. Let’s be fair, if Donald Trump told you your house was on fire you’d probably assume it was some daft nonsense or a sales pitch.

    German politics is also a lot more like Ireland in terms of how it works. The PR system is complicated and decision making is highly distributed and shared. It’s all about consensus finding. The same applies at the European institutional level. Things can drift along and decisions can be slow in normal times.

    I think tbh an element of Russia just sees everything as a weapon be it trade or nuclear weapons. I mean look at how they behaved around the pandemic? They strutted around about Sputnik V, when they didn’t even have sufficient capacity to produce it for their domestic market. They then spewed propaganda against other vaccines and all sorts of crazy politics and power plays went on. Even in Ireland you’d one politician demanding we get the Sputnik V in, same in Italy etc while European supply chains were just ramping up and would ultimately have huge capacity.

    It kept happening and it’s fairly obvious they’ve had a big hand in opportunistically pushing conspiracy theories and weird politics in multiple countries, very much with some kind of aim to destabilise.

    Russia very much seems to operate in some kind of weird Orwellian paranoia and it’s unfortunate as I think there was a possibility of something far more positive emerging after the Cold War. A lot was mishandled, primarily in Russia itself - and I would suspect in large part because you can’t expect a country with no history of democracy, accountability, transparency or any of those things to snap its fingers and suddenly change into something that evolved over hundreds of years in the “West.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot



    This is the kind of pressure I’d like to see. Try and somehow appeal to normal Russians (some sort of olive branch) and really isolate Putin. I know they are limited to what they see/hear but I would of thought A charm offensive should be tried to neuter Putin. It’s not like the west doesn’t have ways of interfering with Russia in the same nefarious ways Russia has done with us.

    I would like to think that somebody’s done their homework and there is a less extreme alternative option to Putin in the wings.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    A charm offensive? Lol. He's burnt all his bridges with this one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    You might need to read my post again. The link I posted is literally Biden saying Putin Is done as Russian leader , I didn’t say charm offensive towards Putin 🤷🏻



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There is no one else its a dictatorship.

    Who exactly in this group should be charmed.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10564101/Who-replace-Putin-toppled-coup-rogues-gallery-replace-Vlad.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I said there should be a charm offensive with the Russian people and stated I hoped somebody had done their homework on the alternatives.

    Who are you arguing with ? Do you even read what’s written or just shoot first and think later?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    How can you get to the people in a police State. What alternative's. What are YOU talking about.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There’s always someone else. Dictators can and do get overthrown, often rather dramatically. Europe has seen it many, many times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You mean regime change. I would agree that's what's required. But I think it would take some time to achieve. I wonder when will the wealthy circle decide this is too expensive for them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “Regime change” isn’t the phrase I would use. It will have to be something driven by the Russian people themselves as nobody can do it for them, nor can the world absolve them from the practical and economic consequences of needing to contain Russia’s aggression.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    @Vachement Can you substantiate your claims made over the last 2 or 3 posts?

    In particular you say it was the west who offered genuine partnership but it was Russia who rebuffed it over the last 10, 15 years. I was unawares of that, please explain. Also you say Russia then has betrayed all that trust and goodwill by threats and pointing missiles. Can you substantiate that also please?

    I will be honest I would be of the complete opposite opinion and I would like to know how you arrived at your version of events past the few soundbites that you threw out there. Thanks.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,017 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Sounds like the same thing...

    "...Regime change may occur through domestic processes, such as revolution, coup, or reconstruction of government following state failure or civil war..."



This discussion has been closed.
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