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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You can state it as many times as you like - an assertion, without the data to support it, is not evidence, let alone does it meet the standards of credible scientific evidence.

    Leaving out the crucial element which forms the basis of your hypothesis in support of your argument that transgender athletes have such a significant and disproportionate advantage as to warrant their exclusion from participation in sports competition, means your conclusions are not based upon scientific evidence, but on your own personal beliefs.

    Having me listen to five hours of a podcast where there is likely no mention of transgender athletes, would be a waste of my time. I already said I don’t question the influence of testosterone, it has nothing to do with whether or not there is credible scientific evidence to support the claims in relation to people who are transgender, in order to justify discrimination against them on the basis of gender or sex.

    Just to remind you, the measures which are discriminatory cannot be disproportionate, and the measures have to be justifiable, as in without the discrimination, there would be no means to achieve what is being offered as as a legitimate aim - in this case the protection of women’s sports for biological females*. The question was never answered in the Connecticut case as the students in question had graduated and the plaintiffs could not identify other female transgender athletes:

    U.S. District Court Judge Robert Chatigny dismissed the lawsuit on procedural grounds, saying in the ruling released Sunday that there was no dispute to resolve because the two transgender athletes have graduated and the plaintiffs could not identify other female transgender athletes.

    Defense attorney Joshua Block argued the CIAC policy doesn’t deny any girl a meaningful opportunity to participate in sports, but that overturning it would violate the Title IX rights of transgender girls.

    “No court, no agency has ever defined a participation opportunity as winning an equal number of trophies,” he argued.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna758


    *using that term does make me cringe, but y’know, I’m trying to be reasonable and fair to you, they’re the terms you prefer, so… meh 😒



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,898 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    Is the title of the thread wrong; Isn't Lia Thomas a transgender woman ( male to female) as opposed to transgender man ( female to male).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    "Transmisogynists are terrified not just of trans women competing in women’s sports, but of trans women doing well in women’s sports. Trans men athletes do face transphobia, but they are not subjected to the same level of scrutiny, criticism, dehumanization, and punishment for daring to compete or even occasionally win"

    Lol transmisogynists. Classic.

    Acknowledgement that some is the actual sex they were born is the opposite of dehumanisation. As humans, you are unable to change sex.

    I don't want to punish anyone for winning. I don't care if the transperson loses every competition.

    It's the competing part I have an issue with.

    I simply want women to not have to compete with men in sports segregated by sex and vice versa. The same way I wouldn't want a group of 20 year olds playing against under 12s.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Damn. It's as solid the argument against you.

    I'll allow it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe



    Thomas ( a transgender woman ) was beaten by Henig (a transgender man).

    Thomas has medically transitioned meaning her testosterone levels are reduced enough for her to compete in women's events.

    Henig has yet to medically transition so his testosterone levels are low enough for him to compete in women's events.

    Once Henig begins medical transition his testosterone levels will ruled him out of women's events and he will be eligible to compete against men.

    The 'decide by biology' side of the debate would have a medically transitioned Henig still competing against women.

    A transgender man (who is still 100% biologically female) won the two races - beating a transgender woman (who has been taking hormone blockers for at least 2 years) in the process.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    So you are ok with women competing against trans men?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Am I ok with biological women competing against each other in sports or competition segregated by sex? Sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,028 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    A lot of high profile women athletes, scientists and social figures have stood up and spoken out against Trans athletes in women's sports and spaces.


    There is a growing feminine backlash against the women haters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He is biologically female and always will be.

    What a silly world we live in.

    OEJ was asking why people insisted on using the prefix biological in front of man or woman.

    This is the reason why.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    How is it fair to have women compete against an athlete who is legally taking testosterone?

    We have all heard about the effects of testosterone on the human body and how this gives trans women an advantage even when they are using hormone blockers - do trans man not have that advantage?

    Wht about the transmen who, due to using puberty blockers, never go through 'female' puberty but, via hormone treatment, go straight into male puberty? You happy they should compete against women?

    I'll be honest I know a fair few trans women and trans men and I would rather face a transgender woman on a rugby pitch (I may have already done so tbh since we never checked genitals) than a transgender man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    "feminine" haters?

    A lot of who you name have also spoken out in favour so do we now decide based on the opinions of well known personalities?

    There is indeed a growing backlash against the transphobes. Particularly those English ones who are trying to stick their oar in over here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I'm feeling a bit biodegradable.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh right.

    Not all trans people take testosterone.

    No, if someone is taking substances which give them an advantage over other people of their sex, then no, they shouldn't be allowed compete, regardless of whether they are trans or not.

    That's not a trans issue, it's a PED issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    To be allowed to compete at any level above ad hoc amateur most sports (all the one's I have researched but I haven't researched them all) require trans people to legally identify (a lengthy enough bureaucratic process) and have medically transitioned for at least 2 years, so yes. We can take it as a given that to officially (as a member or a club or association) participate all transmen would be taking testosterone.

    Transwomen are required to take testosterone reducing drugs for at least two years - the very opposite of "performance enhancing" surely - they do voluntarily what Caster Semenya was being compelled to do in the interests of "fairness".

    Many athletes take drugs to deal with medical conditions, taking serious painkillers (for example) or steroids as prescribed for injury would certainly give an advantage. While we could quibble about whether gender dysphoria is a medical condition - it is absolutely a condition that is treated medically by a licenced practitioner, they aren't buying them round the back of the locker room. And being treated medically is a requirement for trans people to compete in sports.

    The reality is there could be transwomen playing in the Women's 6 Nations today - this is legal under World Rugby rules provided transition began before puberty. Unless someone comes out and says xxxx is trans no-one watching would be any the wiser.

    Your position would force transpeople to choose between sport or transitioning.

    I'm fairly sure you would be happy if no-one ever transitioned. It's not really about sport at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭rogber


    Unfortunately they now have Putin on their team too, this is sure to be used against them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I'm watching Eng Vs Scot in the Women's 6 Nations.

    20 minutes to go and the score is 57 - 5 to Eng.

    England are literally a professional team and have been since 2019. Scotland are not. Neither are Ireland.

    Many English clubs also pay their women players.

    All this talk about fairness in women's sports but silence on the undoubted advantages professional players have over amateurs.

    Apparently trans women will destroy women's sports but underfunding is grand.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What exactly is this lengthy bureaucratic process to legally declare yourself as the opposite GENDER (not sex just to be clear)?

    Until I am told definitively, how many genders there are, and why it should impact anything to do with your actual sex, I couldn't care less what people identify as, especially when it is contradictory to what they actually, physically and biologically are.

    If any drugs taken by people are on a banned list, then they should not be permitted to compete in anything above amateur or recreational sports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,898 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    Having re-read the original post I now realise you were referring to Henig in the title, however, the main argument throughout the thread is about transwomen ( like Lia Thomas) competing against biological women. I think you started this thread knowing that transwomen and not transmen would be the main topic. No one really minds transmen competing as they are stepping up a level to compete, so have no advantage. Transwomen are stepping down a level to compete, Lia Thomas if allowed will continue to compete at the top level of women's swimming, Henig will be an alsoran when she has to eventually compete against men, that's the reality. Also Lia Thomas has not fully transitioned, afaik she has yet to have gender reassignment surgery (GRS) maybe this should be a requirement to compete at elite level. I know transwomen can be declared legally male without GRS and a lot don't want it, but, maybe in sport only those that get it should be allowed to compete at elite level.

    It's a complex situation which I'm not really sure how it will be resolved fairly to all, it's also something that is going to become more common in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,898 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    It has been mentioned many times, it's crazy a professional team playing an amateur team, especially in an annual tournament like the 6 nations, similar to USA ladies soccer team thrashing Thailand 13-0 ( correct me if I'm wrong)in the recent world cup, it's another white elephant in women's sport that's not allowed to be discussed, unfortunately, constructive criticism is not allowed in women's sport anymore, everyone and everything must be positive otherwise don't comment, but, that's a completely different argument and has absolutely nothing to do with transwomen competing in women's sport.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    It happens in men's rugby (Ireland v USA) and soccer (Ireland v San Marino) it's a different issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Nah man, I wasn’t wondering why anyone insisted on using the prefixes they do, I know exactly why they use them, my point is that the use of the prefixes they’re using, makes no sense.

    That’s why I said I bite my tongue, because it’s similar to the way in Islam for example, the ideology insists that everyone is Muslim, and according to Islam converts revert to Islam, while from the perspective of an ideology such as Catholicism - once a Catholic, always a Catholic, as that’s the religion they were born into, and the Church has the records to prove it,

    Same as anyone is required to go by the designation on their birth certificate, and none of that has anything to do with biology, any more than the terms ‘biological female’ and biological male’ have anything to do with biology.

    They’re what are called snarl words -

    derogatory term, a term used to insult or demean its referent.

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/snarl_word

    Everyone knows why anyone who is using them is doing so, and it has nothing to do with biology or wanting to distinguish either women or men as a social classes, or males and females as sex classes. It’s specific purpose is to exclude and dehumanise people who are transgender, under the pretence that anyone using the terms claiming they are scientific terms, gives a shiny shyte about science 😂

    I do try not to laugh, because it’s not nice to laugh at people less fortunate than oneself, it’s just bad manners, and it’s rude, but anyone using the terms ‘biological female’ or ‘biological male’ to refer to anyone, sure isn’t making it easy to resist. They thoroughly deserve to be mocked, mercilessly, for their stupidity in insisting upon using derogatory and degrading terms to refer to women, while claiming they are doing so in service of protecting women 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    It changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction so what you want is a list of every single country that recognises the legal right of people to have their preferred gender recognised, plus the steps necessary in every single one of those judications to have that legally recognised.

    And you want this from me when the Women's 6 Nations is on and Ireland are about to play?

    Not happening. See, I am actually interested in women's sport.

    If you are genuinely interested you could just, you know, google it yourself.

    I'll get you started:


    M'thinks you protest too much about not caring, you are awfully engaged in a discussion about a topic you don't care about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Men's sport is "up a level" from women's is it?

    All men's sports?

    The reads like "Sure why bother about the ladies doing their sportzing sure it's not as important as the men's anyway".

    If not - I apologies.

    If so - That is exactly the attitude that underfunds women's sports - which is the real threat to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It does, and you’re right, of course it’s a different issue, but the point is being made in reference to issues that actually impact women’s sports - biological males competing in women’s sports is not one of them.

    On a priority list of the many, many issues impacting women’s sports, the idea of biological males competing in women’s sports is so negligible by comparison to other issues that it doesn’t even register.

    The points raised by Erica Sullivan will be ignored for the same reasons you’re insisting that they are different issues. Everyone is aware they are different issues, the point being made is that they are never addressed, while so much emphasis is placed upon addressing something which is a complete non-issue for women in sports -


    Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women—including trans women—are protected from discrimination, and free to be their true selves.

    https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192?amp=1


    A number of Republicans are balking at the idea of introducing legislation which they say is intended to address an issue which just doesn’t exist -


    Mr. Holcomb said the bill, known as H.E.A. 1041, would likely have been challenged in court. He also questioned whether it was solving any pressing issue, writing in a letterto lawmakers that “the presumption of the policy laid out in H.E.A. 1041 is that there is an existing problem in K-12 sports in Indiana that requires further state government intervention.”

    “It implies that the goals of consistency and fairness in competitive female sports are not currently being met,” the governor added in his letter. “After thorough review, I find no evidence to support either claim even if I support the overall goal.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/us/eric-holcomb-transgender-sports.html


    Lawmakers passed the bill earlier this month in the final hours of their legislative session.

    The veto override vote came just days after Republican Gov. Spencer Cox penned a heartfelt letter to legislators in which he said he’d been moved by data showing that including transgender youth in sports could reduce suicide rates within the group.

    "I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly,” Cox wrote.

    He also cited statistics showing that while 75,000 kids played high school sports in Utah, only four were transgender, with just one involved in girls' sports.

    “Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day,” he wrote. “Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few.”

    “If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state,” he added.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna21459


    Bold emphasis my own, as it really highlights the scale of the issue we’re talking about here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I wasn't aware USA played in the 6 Nations.

    Which is what I am talking about.

    The. Six. Nations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Funding for women's sports is constantly being discussed. And has been since women began to compete.

    And if one is arguing that transwomen should not be allowed to compete due to having an "advantage" and claiming one is concerned about fairness then absolutely funding should be an issue. Professionals have an enormous advantage. Built into the system.

    It's certainly more relevant than changing rooms in shops or women's prisons let they have been brought up several times.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have no interest in watching women's sport. I have every interest in women's sport being left for biological women to play against each other.

    I've no interest in watching under 12s soccer matches. I would also be vocal about not letting 30 year old people compete against them



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    So 'it's a different issue' and you agree it is so why do you say I'm insisting it is?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Because the point of your insisting that it’s a different issue is to downplay the reality of the fact that there are issues which have a greater impact on women’s sports and women’s participation in sports, than an issue which is really not an issue that has any significant impact on women’s sports and women’s participation in sports.

    The issue of biological males competing in women’s sports serves as nothing more than a distraction from the issues which actually affect women’s sports. It does nothing to address anything in women’s sports, other than wasting enormous amounts of resources to address an issue which isn’t actually an issue, at the expense of putting those same resources into issues which are issues.



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