Is it time to join Nato

It won't be "neutrality" as we know it over here! If an agreement is reached, cannot see Ukraine will accept being de-fanged by Russia (neutral + a token military, ala Ireland).

If anything they will want to get the best of equipment they can get from the West/whoever else will sell it to them and will also have a big standing army + a national service of some sort i.e. similar to the others bordering Russia to the West in the EU that have a great mistrust of + fear of it based on unpleasant history.

Yes, well hopefully we'll never need likes of what Ukraine might have call for.

In fairness to politicial system here it is generally responsive to public opinion and policy of not spending any money on defence forces and letting them rot is what electorate wanted (if they thought about it at all) I would judge. Silence gives consent. The reaction when or if the govt. starts trying to give them a lot more funds will be interesting.

Look it, will just leave it there if you want to soap box about the evils of the "power swap" in the state (assume you mean FFG) and health + housing crises which have nothing to do with Irish defence/security policy or underfunding of Irish Defence forces imo. I have not noticed any major public or media outcry for more resources for them.

Added this in an edit to above but repeating...I have not observed any major public or media outcry for more resources for them over last decade or so (or any other group arguing for it apart possibly from the army itself).

It would begin there for our politicians, otherwise they won't care (unfortunately I suppose). edit: I'm being agnostic about what party the politicians are from here. On health and housing there is that pressure at least, regardless of politicians/administrators failures to actually resolve the problems.

edit again: I should say I did not mean to put all the blame for the state of the defence forces on the public/electorate. Sometimes politicians have to try and take a lead on an issue, even if it is not on public's radar and even if expenditure of money on it might be unpopular.

You would have to be extremely naive not to think an EU army is on the cards..of course the yes side in the Lisbon referendum were partial to the oul lies also..."vote yes for jobs!"

our political class think a referendum on our neutrality is unnecessary....

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40839860.html

Naivety is one thing, exaggeration is another. It remains to be seen how things will pan out but there are many degrees of things before the situation reaches one of a full-blown EU Army. It does not seem unimaginable that we will see a push for a more integrated and committed common defence policy for Europe, but that can take on many guises and has to go through the governance channels before its final form is ever realised.

My guess at present is that it will be something that doesn't even go as far as things like the NATO commitments on declarations of war (noting, by the way, that the promulgators of the term "EU Army" in media and commentary never seem to apply the term "NATO Army" as any suggestion of sovereignty impingements on NATO countries). It may simply take the form of a pact to assist the defence of EU external borders (i e. the Eastern borders) and commitment by member states to greater financial and resource contribution to that end. It may not even require the shedding of Irish neutrality, even if neutrality is a bit of a Get Out Clause from what is clearly our unequivocal alignment with the NATO nations and the Western order.

In my opinion though, all the talk of military defence is obfuscating what should be the real focus of our efforts in this century: energy. Because while we can talk about future wars and how we address them, it seems inevitable that the worst of those wars will centre around the race for resources. We as a country should not be too het up over neutrality, but rather being prepared for the day when our energy providers either run dry or become hostile.

I think if Ukraine does accept neutrality (with security guarantees) as seems to be developing between the 2 countries now then the question is - who will supply the security guarantees? I do not think that Nato will be acceptable to Russia - so that only leaves a European army.

Was fair? At a time Ireland was in the economic doldrums , I'd say it what was what got Lisbon treaty over the line...of course the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with creating jobs, if it would have been put in front of the French and Dutch they would have rejected it ...after all it was the EU constitution they rejected repackaged.Those of us who were intimately involved with the No side knew that the concessions on tax matters and neutrality would be eventually be sold down the river, especially with Varadkar a self confessed EU federalist and cohorts at the steering wheel.

What's interesting is they're using this crisis thousands of kilometers away to try justify it..

Yes, (repeating myself) it was fair.

Provoking a crisis in our EU membership & putting it into doubt (edit: that would have been main effect of a 2nd "No" vote) would not be good for the economy, which as you point out, was in a pretty poor state at the time given country had just received a bail out package.

Leaving the EU, which lets be honest is what the "No" side in all these referendums down the many decades have wanted for Ireland (they always argue vote "No" on every EU treaty and it's always the same crowd of people in Irish political terms i.e. SF + the far left who despise the EU and always have) would not be a very good strategy for creating jobs in Ireland.

What's "interesting" about it? The crisis is not so far away, it is at the EU border, and we are in the EU for all you might wish it were not so. The crisis is having fairly negative effects on some EU members due to refugee flows from Ukraine. Several EU members are under threat from Russia, it all feels a bit different from where they are located I imagine. Though I suppose there is a logical consistency here if you'd argue, leave the EU, tell the others to go and shíte (as its 1000s of km away), maybe even do a little bit of cozying to Putin/Russia and play up on "neutrality" for some cheap oil say like India....no crisis for us!

No, was discussing Lisbon Treaty specifically with other poster and not making these comments about any future agreements on EU mutual defence or military cooperation etc. that might need a referendum held here, depending on what is in them.

I was arguing if we'd rejected Lisbon again, it would have called our entire membership into question (rather than resulting in Lisbon being scrapped).

I don't think it would be quite the same with some new EU Common defence agreement as it is more specific (Lisbon was a treaty changing large parts of architecture of the EU) and it is also likely to be an extension/adding something new rather than changing what is already there.

If we opt out of it (e.g. voters reject it in an EU referendum), well it is not going to affect the others who will go forward without us much, and it may not affect most aspects of our current EU membership, other than a (possibly severe though?) reduction of trust + weakening of relations with the other members who are taking part. I don't think we'll be able to obstruct it or veto it, if it is happening. Of course we may be sorry we're not a part of it later on if we run into some trouble (guarantees go both ways - as well avoiding obligations that could compromise our military "neutrality" we may lose benefit of protections if we are ever subject to some external aggression here, in our cozy nest in the Atlantic).

The EU recognised the veto we and others had.

If they did that and then turfed out a member because they used the veto, what opinion could you form of the EU?

I don't believe it would have happened and never believed the scaremongering about it.

This article is in the IT today.

I am not sure that the statement from Mr Harris below fits in with Irish neutrality position - what do others think.

Mr Harris added European countries were pooling their resource in the counter-espionage area and that the Garda force itself was “very conscious of our own internal security”, from physical security to staff vetting.“This is something we take very seriously and given the experiences elsewhere in Europe, we are wise to take this seriously,” he said.

Exactly, if we had followed the Sinn Fein line and rejected any or all of the EU referenda, we would have been opting out of the EU rather than being turfed out. If a golf club sells a course and moves to a new location, you either move to the new location or stop playing, you can't keep playing on the old one.