Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Finally, something we can agree on.

See, jokes aren't that hard. Just keep it simple lol

I haven’t heard any of the radio coverage, but I read some of the articles covering Sonia O’ Sullivan’s stance on the issue. Her point is pretty much this -

‘That a male who becomes a transgender woman, are they allowed to then compete against biological women? With the science behind it all, it just doesn’t make sense that they should be allowed to do that.

https://extra.ie/2022/03/25/news/sonia-osullivan-transgender-athletes?amp=1

And I’m not a regular reader of her contributions to the Irish Times, nor a regular viewer of her opinions on RTE, but I do remember when she was giving her opinions about the Irish Teams performance in Tokyo, and where she was of the opinion they had made a crucial mistake in their approach -

Speaking on RTE on Monday morning Sonia O’Sullivan said: ‘I think it might have been a mistake for a lot of the athletes to go out to Japan so early for a training camp.

‘A lot of them were out there way too long. Particularly, someone like Sarah Healy. She said she was nervous when she got to the stadium. She’s been out there for nearly two weeks.

‘You’re in a very artificial environment. There’s nothing to distract you. You’re going training, you’re eating, you’re sleeping. There’s nothing else going on.’

When it was pointed out that this early journey was for acclimatisation, O’Sullivan shot back: ‘A maximum of five days is all you need for that. I’m sure there’s a load of science and physiology out there that would disagree with me.

‘If you were to speak to someone like myself, or Derval (O’Rourke, also in studio at the time), we’ve been there before, and done this.

‘We know what it takes, and you don’t have to prepare that long in advance if you’re fit, and ready to go.’

https://extra.ie/2021/08/02/sport/sport-extra/sonia-osullivan-rte?amp=1

It would appear that like so many people who claim that their opinions are supported by science, Sonia O’ Sullivan is just as quick to abandon scientific evidence in favour of anecdotes and claims about political correctness, when her opinions aren’t supported by scientific evidence.

What's with the bizarre fixation on Sonia O'Sullivan? You clearly have no respect for her at all. The late great Gerry Kiernan also had some firm if odd views at times but was also a voice always worth listening to on athletics. You can ignore her just as one can ignore randomers on the internet spouting stuff. Her thing is women's athletics and defending it and her long years of association means she has a perspective on it however little you think of it.

There is a strong added political element and culture clash to what goes on in the US and those on the GOP/conservative side will likely be most vocal against this. Not sure why you imagine lists of people who back your view proves a point. It's sometimes very easy to support a position if asked, regardless of what view you have on it; celebrities shamelessly do so. We had quite a few experts putting their names to some every dubious proposals during COVID.

Was reading the US swimming regulations earlier and they do define two groups of swimmers, non-elite where people can do as they please and the elite where there are now more stringent rules to follow. Ultimately the fairness element has to be balanced/biased in favour of those who are biologically women.

Not sure why you imagine lists of people who back your view proves a point.

Is that so? You’re not sure why anyone why anyone imagines a list of people who back their views prove a point, after you’d just tried to tear me a new one for what you perceived was a bizarre fixation on an an athlete who by your own admission -

Her thing is women's athletics and defending it and her long years of association means she has a perspective on it however little you think of it.

G’wan up that garden 😂

Just as I’m watching Dancing With The Stars Final right now, one of the participants is also a swimmer - Ellen Keane. You imagine she bitches about other athletes having biological advantages? Does in her hole, she makes the point that her whole journey on the show has been about representation and being that person that she needed when she was a kid -

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2022/0325/1288475-dwts-the-final-countdown-ellen-keane/

I wouldn’t agree that the scientific opinion is pretty clear that the trans competitor has an advantage. Now, hold onto your hat for a minute and allow me to explain.

Professor Niall Moyna is a good example of the phenomenon of science popularisers who, shall we say, are not a media personality. Another good example of the phenomenon was Matt Taylor, just to give you some idea of what I mean. We all know how that turned out -

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/13/why-women-in-science-are-annoyed-at-rosetta-mission-scientists-clothing

I have zero interest, none, in seeing Moyna being flamed or any of the rest of it, he just has a very poor understanding of the science involved, and isn’t particularly media savvy. You’ll see what I mean in a minute when I say to you that Ross Tucker, as an example, is far more media savvy, and he exemplified the issues involved in one single quip -

Good data is unethical, and ethical data is not good

Ethical conflicts like that come up in scientific and medical research ALL the time -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Treatment

There is a good interview with both scientists from three years ago, and they both made the point then that there isn’t enough data on transgender athletes performance in sports. They both were of the opinion that more data on transgender athletes is needed, but it’s incredibly difficult to gather, given the numbers of people who are openly transgender is so minuscule, and within that data, the number of athletes is even more minuscule, and within that data, well, you can see the issue - the number of transgender athletes, let alone biological males who choose to transition, you could literally count them on two hands, one hand if you were only taking into consideration biological males who were already elite athletes who chose to transition and participate in women’s competitions.

That’s just not even coming close to providing sufficient data which could credibly provide scientific evidence of any sort of an advantage which transgender athletes who’s sex is biologically male, and their gender identity is female, competing in women’s sports, would have over other women in sports. It could only be determined on a case by case basis, at national, local, and international level in women’s sports, and as you widen the field of potential eligible athletes for any competition, then the potential fairness element, or what is called equity, increases as the field of eligible athletes increases. You can design mathematical models for fairness, or apply machine learning to the problem of determining fairness (anyone who says determining fairness is a zero-sum game - 😬):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_(machine_learning)

And while mathematical and data modelling is sexy AF in a data-driven society, still you’re going to have to deal with the issue of individuals who are of the opinion that any rules by way of coming up with a solution to the issue, are unfair to them, as individuals.

Ultimately, it’s only a problem for the individuals who think it’s a problem, or they want to create a problem where a problem doesn’t exist, and no amount of data, or scientists opinions, or athletes opinions, is going to have any effect to change their mentality - as far as they’re concerned, they’re not being treated fairly, and they’ll continue to fight until they are. I wouldn’t expect any less tbh if I were in their position. It’s precisely for this reason that I’m not in their position.

33 mins but worth every minute:

Well I mean...

"They reclassified Brock Whiston. Last year I was European champion and I was world number one until April. Then she got put into my classification.

....

"They based it off that one swim they watched her do in April. Then they confirmed (her category) until 2021.

"After that swim she broke the world record by four seconds. She went on to become world champion. So many questions have been asked about the system because... a lot of athletes are slipping through that."

I can't find the exact blog but it referred to the one below

"At the same time, I think progressives have grown somewhat overconfident about the broad popularity of some of these issues and are not paying enough attention to the potential electoral ramifications of supporting trans participation on women’s sports teams. The Transgender Law Center itself says that in their message testing that “our opposition wins the debate on trans youth in sports against any and all arguments we have tried for our side." It is not smart for elected officials to take up a political cause whose own advocates say it’s currently a losing position. And I think it’s important not to die on that hill because there are other important political fights that are winnable."