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General Rugby Discussion 3

191012141586

Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    They go into Pool B which will be:

    South Africa

    Ireland

    Scotland

    Spain

    (Probably) Tonga



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    That was a great game. Only caught the second half but it was extremely entertaining.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,719 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Full house at Spain / Portugal be good to see how they could somehow give them incentive of getting into 6 Nations - Playoff game or something , give Italy incentive to up it. Well sone Spain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Leicester have been fined £310,000 for breaking salary cap regs. over 4 seasons. Naughty boys.....😁



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    What's that , one years Salary for a top level player?

    Hardly much of a disincentive in the grand scheme of things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I think in all materiality they were only about 27k over the salary cap and were able to demonstrate that it was accidental rather than constructive ommission.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,155 ✭✭✭OldRio


    This is an interesting development although how this is going to work I'm not sure.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,413 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I read that earlier it seems mainly based around kicks, they use the data to give stats on who’s pushing their kicks and things like height and hang time. The tv company’s will probably be quite annoying with uninteresting stuff but the coaches will probably get useable info from it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    If the Smart Rugby Ball doesn't have a camera that the TV producer can switch to during the game I don't want to know :P



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,375 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    22 cap former Argentine International Federico Martin Aramburu was murdered in a drive-by shooting outside a bar in the centre of Paris last night.

    It's understood he and an associate had got into an altercation with two men in the bar during the evening.

    Aramburu was part of the two time Bouclier winning Biarritz side and also played for Perpignan and Dax

    RIP



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,375 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I feel like the prophet of doom the last few days, but nevertheless..

    Very sadly, a member of the Scottish Parliament RC, parliamentary assistant David Hill, died on the field while facing the Oireachtas team here in Dublin over the weekend. His passing is reported not to have been connected to a rugby injury or contact on the field.

    May he rest in peace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Zeugnis





  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Zeugnis


    From reports in Le Point and elsewhere in the French media, the police are looking for a notorious right-wing activist, Loïk Le Priol, who is suspected of being the killer. There was a fight in a bar between Aramburu and other rugby players (including Shaun Hegarty) and a gang of fascists who started giving them racist abuse. After security staff stopped it, the Le Priol & co. headed off, got a gun, and shot him on the street near his hotel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Zeugnis


    Main suspect, Loïk Le Priol, arrested yesterday in Hungary. Driver in jail since last Saturday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    ^^^

    WTF did I just read?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    The type of nonsense that used to litter the schools threads on here and that eventually saw all threads on schools rugby be locked immediately pretty much



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,413 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I can’t be positive but reading between the lines I think someone is not keen on that school. There appears to be a call to arms, if we get together we can crush rock before the rainy season comes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Didn’t realize posts could be deleted. Now it looks like you’re questioning the post about far right nut jobs.

    The post that was deleted was just total rubbish. Something that comes when adult men can’t grow up and move beyond stupid school rivalries. Well I’m assuming it was an adult.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,719 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    With Spain qualifying to the WC , anyone know how popular the game is ther , similar to Italy ?

    great to see, rugby expanding through Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,225 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    In Dupont, I really think we're witnessing the ascent of the future greatest player of all time. He has attributes that a scrum half simply shouldn't possess. He always makes a positive influence on the pitch. He's just 25 too.




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203



    Insane stuff. Finding it harder to watch rugby lately. World Rugby need to intervene big time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 495 ✭✭Stanley 1


    Red card all day, the tackler seeks to catch the attacker high and try to swallow him and the ball in an all embracing tackle to prevent a try, he gets it wrong by not locking/wrapping his arms and clearly hits him head to head contact.

    He could have tried to sweep him away with a tackle to his thighs/hips and drive the attacker across towards the touchline or other defender.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    All of these collisions can be removed if players simply went lower into the tackle.

    I've no sympathy for any player who is stood upright in a tackle being sent off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    These things happen in rugby. It's such a dynamic situation, trying to stop a fast-moving ball-carrier who could change direction at any time. The defender doesn't get to watch the tackle over and over in slow-motion in advance before deciding what type of tackle to attempt.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,413 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    The winger kind of leaned a bit toward him right at the end but I’d say that’s more a reaction of knowing he was getting hit high, defender didn’t even dip, he was just relying on knocking him over in a collision.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    high tackles with a high degree of danger should not be a choice, thats the whole point of the aim towards cutting high tackle out of the game.

    Banks in this instance could have decided to tackle low, keep hi own head on the right side and made a perfectly safe legal tackle. he had the added safety of having muirhead beside him as well to aid in the tackle

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIcn7PDol8

    check out Dmacs tackle on Nadolo here at 1:05

    check out Sanchez' almost identical tackle on Nadolo at 3:35 in that vid as well.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I think it was Donal Lenihan that said this in an interview after the Ireland v Italy game.

    We are going to see a glut of these Red cards until everyone adjusts .

    Just like we had a glut of red cards for taking players out in the air until everyone adjusted and before that we had a glut of Red cards for tip tackles (Sam Warburton being a famous one) while everyone reset themselves for that change too.

    Doubt we'll see anything like the same volume of cards next season.

    Defence Coaches that had been coaching these higher contact point tackles aiming to dislodge the ball or to wrap the player up are now furiously re-thinking the approach to bring the tackle height down while still having a defensive pathway to stopping offloads etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    I agree but u then have the argument about players going lower yet the ball carrier then dips on purpose and play acts for a card



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    That's where the "mitigation" comes in , if the tackler is at a height where they would be making a legal tackle but then the attacker dips/slips or otherwise changes their body height such that the contact ends up being head high , then there shouldn't be a card.

    Refs will make mistakes , just like players do though.

    Bottom line though , this gets fixed on the training pitch.

    This is a coaching issue - you don't really see these cards in the domestic/community level game because defences are much less "planned" and the focus is on simply making a tackle whereas at the Pro level the tackle is just one component of the overall defensive plan so players are coached to tackle higher to block offloads or because the defence coach is trying to create slow ball by holding the player up for a second or two to allow for defensive re-organisation etc.

    Like I said earlier , Defence coaches need to re-think their whole defensive model to reflect a much lower tackle height across the board , it will happen but likely needs a whole pre-season to bed in with the elite level players.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thats why we have mitigation. the tackler can only control their own movements



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    'Got to be a place' for 20-minute red card (rte.ie)

    Here's more of it. Not sure how behaviours will ever change if we don't seriously sanction dangerous play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    They happen because coaches don't coach players appropriately and governing bodies are weak.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    these things are not mutually exclusive. i am very much in favour of the 20 min red card, as well as being very much in favour of seriously sanctioning dangerous play.

    A players behaviour is not going to change based on whether the red card happens in the 2nd or 69th minute. Their behaviour will very much change should the sanctions for their behaviour be severe and consistent. The biggest issue currently is, the sanctions are all over the place.

    heres a question, was the "20 min red card" a factor in Banks getting sent off? was the "non 20 min red card" a factor in Daly getting sent off?

    the answer is either yes here for both, or its no for both, and thus whatever answer is given shows that the 20 min red card is not an influence on a players behaviour.

    that leads onto the next question, does a 2nd min red card unequally affect a team compared to a 69th min red card? i think most right minded fans would say yes it does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The issue with minimising red cards, is the team with the injured player can be worse affected.

    What if a team took out Tadhg Furlong in the first minute and they only had a red card for 20 minutes, they might survive without much impact and then they're back up to full strength. Meanwhile we're down our most important player, and our sub will have to play the rest of the match with no substitute.

    Potentially the team after 20 minutes begin to have success against our scrum and win the match because our replacement tighthead gets tired with 20 minutes to go and they bring on their replacement and gain an advantage.

    Either they bring in a rule to allow teams to bring on extra substitutes if a player is taken out by foul play, or they leave the red card rule as it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    I don't think the 20 minute period had any bearing on the red card being given.

    On the second point, yes a 2nd minute red card does unequally affect a team versus a 69th minute card but conversely, if the fouled team loses a player for the rest of the game in the 2nd minute versus in the 69th minute it unequally affects them as they could lose one of their key players for essentially the full game and any game plan is out the window. So in that regard, that's the price paid for a serious foul.

    Hypothetically say Sexton is KO'd after two minutes and can't return, likely on the shelf for a couple of weeks and could miss next cup game. Top tier opposition player red carded and team serves twenty minutes with a man down, concede a handful of points but then are able to bring on an equally capable replacement for their red carded player - who now has the advantage for the last 60 minutes? Of course, I'm not saying anyone is intending to get carded, but its the unintended consequences here.

    Admittedly its an imperfect solution in some regards or scenarios but the moment we're starting to feel like teams who have potentially seriously injured other players are being "hard done-by", we've lost the battle entirely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I’d like to hope we haven’t reached a point when any team would deliberately try to injure an opposition player. Yes certain players like Sexton will get targeted but I don’t think the aim was ever the injure him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Reached a point me arsse its been happening in all contact sport sice forever.

    What else does targeting mean ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    To me it means letting him know you’re there, hitting him hard and even a little late. It doesn’t mean intentionally injuring a player. There is a borderline between those too, that’s the game of rugby!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    If Sexton had to leave the field the opposition would be delighted and they know full well that "targeting" him can bring that about.

    You're very naive if you think it's not going on.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    "Targeting" and "Intentionally trying to Injure" are very different things.

    "Targeting" is sending runners down the 10 channel to keep them busy tackling and tire them out or directing Kick-offs to the oppositions strongest carrier so you can get them early and not have them queued up for the secondary carry with a big run up.

    The other thing is far more sinister and simply no longer possible in the Pro-game with the amount of camera angles out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    So players no longer smash their elbow into a players face. Stamp on players, gouge players, cause concussion inducing injuries ?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Players do not go out to get deliberately red carded. Rugby is a game where you can make hard legal contact with your opposition. "targeting" has always been a part of the game, but there is no need at all to do it illegally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    One example please, let's say within the last 10 years, of a player who went out deliberately to get red carded.


    Seeing as you're confident it should be no bother to you



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    They do and they get caught for it and the likelihood of any of those acts being a premeditated attempt to "take a player out" versus a heat of the moment reaction is pretty slim in my view.

    Bakkie Botha famously headbutted Jimmy Cowan during a tackle in a test match - Did Bakkies sit in the hotel the night before and think to himself "I'm going to headbutt Jimmy Cowan tomorrow" or did he just do it because he got angry with Cowan at that moment and had terrible impulse control?

    Do acts of violence occur? Yes they do , but I do not believe that the vast vast majority of those are in any way premeditated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    No one goes out to get red carded that's absolutely dumb. They go out to commit red card offenses and try get away with them.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    You've a very funny view of how the games played. They're are no professional players who deliberately go out to get red carded



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,122 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    no you didnt. you said they go out to deliberately commit red card offenses and try to get away with them.. that is the same as saying they go out deliberately to get red carded, and only other aspects prevent them from that.

    that is not correct.

    i will again ask you for one example of your argument please?



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