Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Your first post on the subject? Post #7069

"is there an argument to start Ruddock in the row this weekend?? or even Murphy

i know mccartys rise has been very impressive, but hes still just a 21 year old academy player."

How can that be taken any other way than you saying the fact he's 21 rather than older should count against him?

Don't be bringing actual facts into this

FWIW, McCarthy being just turned 21, if I were selecting the team I'd be trying to mind him in terms of injury and fatigue being a newcomer to the physical rigours of pro rugby, as he could be a special player in the making, and wouldn't wish to risk prematurely bringing on an injury.

However, if he's not carrying any niggles, and is raring to go then his age isn't a concern for me, he looks to have the necessary size and power to thrive at URC level, and potentially above that too.

Dave is probably out for the rest of the season. He's had no luck with injury this year.

In slightly better news, Frawley and Ross Byrne appear to be fine. The former has no issues after being taken off for a facial injury and then coming on. Byrne passed his HIA but was subbed off with a dental injury.

Kelleher back in training is excellent news. Ryan is back as well, but according to Tracey it's more limited in scope.

Deeny is fit? Why not give him a bench role?

Te'o 2015/2016 (signed to play outside centre by O'Connor, but played more at 12 in Cullen's season as head coach)

Henshaw 2016/2017-present

Isa Nacewa 2017/2018 (10 starts at 12 that season)

Joe Tomane 2018/2019-2019/2020

Charlie Ngatai 2022/2023-2023/2024 (if it's a 2-year deal, and assuming he plays primarily at 12)

So in all that time 2015/2016, 2020/2021 and 2021/2022 are the only seasons when Leinster haven't essentially had two signings at the same time for inside centre. Three seasons out of eight. Surely the signings have to stop at some point for players who've learnt things from incoming players to be able to break through?

Tom Daly, Noel Reid, Steve Crosbie, Ian Madigan, Rory O'Loughlin and David Hawkshaw have all left in that timeframe (or will leave in ROL's and Hawkshaw's cases). It remains to be seen what happens with Conor O'Brien, but it's hard to see much gametime being available for him given the reduced number of games and Ngatai coming onboard. Connacht develop Peter Robb, a player Leinster judged not good enough for the academy, into a good, although bedevilled by injury, provincial level player. Karl Martin decides he's better off out of Leinster. Tommy O'Brien, who probably played more at 12 than the other three-quarter positions for Ireland U20s (?), not given much opportunity there. I believe he's said 12 is his favourite position.

All that doesn't paint a particularly good picture, if you ask me.

Dan Leavy and his brother Adam are starting a new whiskey venture. Wise move given his injury profile. Hopefully its not a sign that he think he has very limited time left.

Biting here against my better judgement but you're fairly reaching with your list of players who've left who can play 12 mate....

1) Those players have left over the course of 6 seasons... rugby squads are pretty fluid entities. Players leave all the time. Creating a list in isolation like that doesn't change it.

2) Of all whom you've mentioned as leaving. None have a remote patch on those who we've brought in so it kinda shows we made the right decision no? Madigan for all his ability to play 12 is a 10 and always has been... for each of the multiple clubs he has now been with.

3) The only one you could say we're being a bit hasty on is possibly Hawkshaw but realistically we don't know anything about him. His best game came at 10 against 14 men.

4) Crosbie shouldn't be in the conversation here. He played twice for Leinster and is no longer playing professionally having played 11 professional games in total.

5) Daly left Leinster with 12 apps. Frawley has since picked up 33 appearances since Daly has left and been included in Ireland training squads and European games. Neither of which Daly was ever in the reckoning for. If you look at that as a straight swap Leinster emphatically got the better deal

6) Reids departure has also been filled by Frawley who again has shown a much higher ceiling than Reid ever did at both 10 and 12. Reids inability to find first team rugby for a subsequent 3 clubs has shown we were correct in backing Frawley.

7) ROL in his 94 appearances has proven to be a very good player for us and filled in a lot but never has looked like breaking into the first team consistently. He has always been at best the second (but normally third) choice 11,12,13 and 14. After 94 appearances I think we know where we stand.

8) Did we miss one on Robb? His injury profile is not a new thing. It has been there his entire career the poor fella. Even at under age he rarely stuck more than a few games back to back. He missed the JWC with injury.

9) Karl Martin made his bed choosing to take a very atypical route for pro rugby. Good on him for trying and I hope it works out. But as of now, we made the correct decision not backing him as we have Osborne

10) I think it's clear TOB is being looked at as a back 3 player now. And is doing a hell of a good job as an outside back/back 3 player. I'm sure he said his favourite position is 12 at some point in a standalone media interview which was context at the time.... opinions change. I'm sure most players will tell you their actual favourite position is the one that gets them in the team...

Did I give off the impression in my post that that's my belief? I certainly don't think that. Of course savvy or experienced or confident players can be a help to players who play different positions. I was simply responding to your comment about John Ryan learning from B.J. Botha in the context of my comments on the inside centre position at Leinster.

Dave Foley got motm for Ireland...

If your barometer for a players calibre over an entire career is a single motm in a single fixture you're gonna get some weird conclusions. And while I like BOD who gave ROL the award.... its hardly surprising he gave it to a Leinster centre who he's clearly fond of.

You wont find me denying that ROL is a good 12. I think the opposite in fact. But is he a better 12 than Frawley? No. Is he a better 12 the majority of the options Leinster have and have had at 12 in recent years? Also no.

Regarding your point on Madigans stint at 12 being the best of his career. Madigan was excellent in this time. But he was also playing in the most turgid game plan that Leinster have seen in recent years culminating in the dismissal of said head coach despite reaching the semi finals of the HC.

That season in the group stages, we scored the second least amount of tries of any of the top 8 teams in the HC and scored a solitary try in the remaining 2 matches and it was in extra time (and you might remember who threw the intercept in that game)

Pro12 doesn't even merit a mention that year either, we missed the playoffs that year by a full 7 points finishing in our lowest ever league position

It has yet to be confirmed that Henshaw has signed a new deal with the IRFU. His current contract expires in the summer. I suppose it's possible that Ngatai is being lined up as a replacement.

Obviously, I hope that's not the case and Henshaw extends his contract.

Hey now!

This is how rumours start lol.

Fekitoa is replacing DDA.

I imagine something would have emerged on the grapevine at this stage if we were losing Henshaw

Jackman recently said henshaws contract was all sorted just not announced yet.. he's been pretty spot on with players moving so far..

Jackman certainly has the goss these days