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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    New windows, new radiators, and a condensing boiler are in a different league than insulation alone.

    And it still cost you 45k for it all.


    The thing about upgrading a home from energy/heating POV is that you rapidly hit diminishing returns as you aim for higher BERs. Going from an F to a C/D is viable, going from C/D to A/B is not. Trying to retrofit a house to heat pump standard rarely is cost effective, and is not realistically ever going to happen for most of the houses nationwide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Not sure why so many people are obsessed with A2W. If you properly insulate a house without looking at air tightness or any of that carry on the amount of oil/gas you will require will be massively reduced. Like in my example above I ended up with a bill of circa 600 euro per year to heat a 4 bed house. No f**king chance a A2W is getting within a ass roar of that price plus the 600 euro of oil would be a lot less harmful to the environment than turning to buy 1k+ of electricity

    The idea scenario then would be HVO and that would be a massive plus



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    And if they just handed out cash grants to people there would be outrage as the inevitable fraud comes out where billions of euros are wasted on work that was never carried out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Here's an idea, Become a registered installer

    Or do you want the government to hand out grants to amateur installers doing half arsed jobs on the cheap with all the potential hazards that come from shoddy electrical work?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    It takes ages to become one. By the time i'm registered the grant scheme will have moved on again. Also they force the registered installers to take on big insurance. I dont think they should give the grant if the job was done shoddily



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    That is problem number 1

    Plus you already mentioned problem number 2, which I had referred to, the amount of guys who would show up at the door promising to install insulation for the grant, do a half assed job and then take the grant money.

    The system has to be regulated. If a person is a good tradesperson they will want to invest the time to get certified. Plus if they are getting certified they will have insurance etc. John down the road who falls over a breaks a leg with no insurance, who is getting screwed in that situation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The Green party, who only took office in 2020, have been blocking oil exploration for over 10 years.

    Right



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    External insulation on a stone / block cottage, plus new rads and hive remote timing system, plus upgrading roof insulation (plus installing french drain but that’s drainage and damp proofing). About €25k total. Windows were done by previous owner

    will go from E to C. Would expect financial return, on heating oil & electric (plus occasional solid fuel in the stove) bills alone, in 20-25 years, but that of course doesn’t include the enhancement to the value of the house (you can argue about the amount but it will be something) plus the substantially enhanced personal comfort which, though unquantifiable, has a value

    plus the smaller environmental impact plus mitigates the risk of energy prices staying high for a long time.

    it is right to challenge the cost benefit from trying to improve from a C to an A, but investing to improving an E/F house is a no brainer



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    The enhanced comfort is something people are trying to ignore. Like when I renovated I put in a new kitchen, I finally got a dish washer etc etc.

    So renovating a house is not just making the house more environmentally friendly but also bringing it up to today's standards.

    I have yet to see any TV show on tv when a architect or someone comes in they explain all they want to do is go from a E to C rating. They tell you how they want to live in house etc, then at the end will say we need to increase insulation etc. they go in tandem



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,074 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The chairperson of the CRU, a State Agency of the Dept. of the Environment, Climate and Communications whose agency`s responsibility is to protect the public interest in energy and energy safety, unlike the statements made to that committee posted here yesterday from Global Network and Friends of the Earth does not have a dog in the fight. Neither did she walk in and make just a brief statement.

    She highlighted the latest insanity from the Irish Green party, their friends and the Minister of the Government Dept. (which her State Agency is part of), on LNG and just further emphasised what some here have been saying on energy security as regards us increasingly reliant on the U.K. as our own Corrib field becomes depleted. She even further emphasised what some here have been saying by pointing out that in doing so we don`t even meet the supply standard required by the E.U. at present.

    Seems like the mother at the passing out parade, when it comes to LNG everybody else is out of step other than the Irish Green party and their supporters. Perish the thought, even Mark Ruffalo and Cher.

    I think if you read the statement again when it comes to security of supply the chairpersons comment on possible damage to pipelines was not in reference to LNG but rather the Moffat pipelines. But then yet again it is likely that is to do with you just hearing what you wish to hear rather than what was said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,072 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "The thing about upgrading a home from energy/heating POV is that you rapidly hit diminishing returns as you aim for higher BERs."

    This is very true and I think there is room in this for a heap of hassle in coming years - people claiming they were poorly advised by consultants & contractors, with poor results for monies laid out.

    There's quite an amount of housing stock that would more usefully be knocked and completely rebuilt to new standards. And that's the likely outcome of the 'mica redress' scheme - the state, us the taxpayer will pay the bulk of rebuilding these dwellings, whilst homeowners will chip in a few extra bob to have new constructions to modern standards. Logically a similar scheme could be provided to a wide range of older properties in the state. At huge expense of course, but that's what the Donegal boyos have got.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,072 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    External insulation on an old cottage? Do your research carefully. Read accounts by people who have had this done. As far as I can see, there are several cons and only some pros to this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    If anything the grant scheme is moving at the pace of a snail. The insulation grant was 300 euro for it had to be nearly 10 years. The only one which has changed a bit was the solar PV. the rest are in place for donkey years with no change at all apart from a little uplift this year

    You asked for people to have the ability to do themselves, so what happens if they spend a load of money to upgrade house, do themselves half assed, then apply for grant and get rejected? then the home owner is left with a big bill, a sh*te job and no way to pay for the stuff they have done or to pay for someone to fix the repair job. It is also worth noting when a job is done terrible it normally costs the same if the contractor done themselves.

    I see a few huge holes in the plan to be honest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Yep it is a risk you take if you decide to do a shoddy job. Only DIY it if you are sure or you see scope to redeem yourself if you do it wrong. There is no reason to punish everyone because this is a possibility. As it is the person who does it himself can be 100% sure they wont' get the grant. If that 100% is reduced any bit its a good thing. U dont need to be a genius to roll out insulation



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Some excellent groups on facebook about renovating old stone houses....I thin the problem with external/internal insulation has been discussed many times and different option to resolve

    Most houses do not need to be knocked. I have a house close to my parents and to be honest if I could buy tomorrow for 60k I would, the guy who lived in it was a "farmer" and it's the 4 walls and roof are stable. Rest is a heap. But gut the inside on it and start again and it would be a lovely house in 6 months.

    I would not mention the mica program. A lot more than shoddy blocks knocking involved in that



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    They were also in government from 2007 to 2011.

    interestingly Eamon granted exploration licences during that time:

    Oil & Gas Licences: On 1st August 2007, despite Green's professed opposition to oil exploration in Irish waters, Minister Eamon Ryan duly announced a new licensing round for oil and gas exploration in the ‘Porcupine Basin’ to commence in the early autumn. Ryan's statement announcing the licence round was interesting in its own right:“Energy prices continue to rise. Both of these factors are leading to greater profits in the industry. Fewer prospective areas are open for exploration internationally, making Ireland’s unexplored basins more attractive. The Atlantic area is seriously under-explored. Departmental analysis of this area estimated risked reserves in the order of 10 billion barrels in the Atlantic area alone.”


    10 billion barrels indeed. How many of those barrels have we used so far and how many are left?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    You would be bloody surprised how many people don't know how to roll out insulation. You would also be surprised how many houses I have gone into with a "builder" having rolled it out and it is done half assed.

    I see the advantages of doing some of the grants yourself but I also see the huge problem. How do you rate if the person can do it or not? as I mentioned above I could see it turning into a huge mess. Not sure if you have an idea but I think you could end up with a lot of successful installation but the few that dont go right are the ones plastered all over the newspapers



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed. We can thank them for forcing all new builds from 2015 to be A2 or higher. The quality of our new housing stock now is phenomenal and these homes likely won't need any insulation upgrades for their lifetime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Indeed we do.

    They have done some good stuff, but they have a massive blind spot at the moment.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    You rate them afterwards, as is the case now.

    I doubt any newspaper is too interested in badly rolled out insulation. I have seen it done half assed myself, that can still happen with todays grant scheme



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    We're not talking about "over 10 years". The issue is with the minister blocking the current application for Barryroe as detailed in the previous comment.

    But sure they're only delighted with themselves. From a recent article published on the green party website

    Climate Action Spokesperson Brian Leddin TD has welcomed the move to introduce legislation to ban licences for new oil and natural gas exploration. The move to end new licences for oil and gas exploration has been a Green Party policy for many years and was a key commitment in the Programme for Government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,074 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So oil and gas exploration was banned by law before Feb. 2021. A law the Green party insisted on being introduced before they signed the Programme for Government.

    Right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I think the actual bill was implemented in 2021 but the steps had already been taken long before the Green became part of the government

    In 2017 the government banned fracking onshore as well. You blaming the Greens for that as well with the mighty power they have with 2 TD's in the Dail?

    https://www.power-technology.com/news/ireland-to-stop-offshore-oil-and-gas-exploration/



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Ok but let say insulation, someone goes out and buys 1k worth of insulation via a short term loan. They get loan because grant will pay it back, does a bad job and then applies for grant, grant gets rejected and they are left holding a 1k loan they can't repay.

    100% it will be on the front page of the newspaper or you will have a "Dear Deirdre" letter into Mary Lou who will read it out and spray it around the web. This is the problem. Easier for the government to stick with a contractor having to do it so the person might have to pay more but they are 100% sure they will get the grant



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    "Green" policies are not exclusively the realm of the "green" party - banning fossil fuel licenses is definitely a "green policy" though, it makes no strategic or economic sense to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    But the ban was started long before the Greens came into government. So please explain how they managed to do that with just 2 TD's in the Dail and no say in the government decisions


    Also I agree, everyone blames the Greens for carbon tax yet that was part of the Paris agreement whih was approved by all parties while the Greens had 2 TD's. Even the great SF who shout about carbon tax approved the Paris agreement, so they are just proving again they ant be trusted



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    They'll have to put it right or suck up the loss. It is an edge case scenario, it's not worth holding back everyone else because that might happen



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Facts and the truth can be such annoying little things especially for some of the pro-carbon posters here



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Sounds good on internet but no department in government will sign that off



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