Cork to Limerick rail improvements

LXFlyer · 31-03-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859753#Comment_118859753

Things get moved.

Let’s not overthink this.

pigtown · 31-03-2022 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861523#Comment_118861523

I guess I'm skeptical as that would presumably double the number of services between Limerick and Cork to 28 in each direction per day and I'd expect the Greens to have been shouting that from the rooftops, especially as there are only 5 direct Limerick-Galway trains per direction a day.

LXFlyer · 31-03-2022 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861956#Comment_118861956

If it is what they are saying, then it can only be that, as I’ve explained.

Now as to whether it happens, that’s another thing.

I’d also not consider the current service as realistic connections between Limerick & Cork due to the long waits at the Junction. It’s designed for trips between Dublin and Limerick.

However, all of this is feeding into the Strategic Rail Review which will, hopefully, finally recognise the need to deliver proper meaningful regional rail services in addition to those to/from Dublin.

I don’t see the current service levels on regional routes as being what they will be in five years time - that will have to change.

Limerick-Galway is constrained by the long 40 minute section from Limerick to Ennis and the single track between Galway and Athenry - the infrastructure needs to be improved to deliver any service increases.

Deedsie · 31-03-2022 7:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861543#Comment_118861543

Fair point. I am trying to identify any possible benefits the Nenagh Branch may receive out of these works. Would the Nenagh branch line be considered as a "detour line" for Limerick Dublin services during double track works?

Trying to be sensible2 · 31-03-2022 8:02pm

I always thought building a new city/town at Limerick Junction would be a good idea. I know it is close to Tipperary, but if you build a town to accommodate 50k-100k. It could act as a commuter town for Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Waterford. Create a Munster Triangle of cities as a counterbalance to Dublin. You could build the motorway between Limerick and Waterford. Help to ease the housing crisis.

But mainly utilise the railway infrastructure of Ireland a lot better. Could make the cost of upgrading the Cork to Dublin line more economical.

Heartbreak Hank · 31-03-2022 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859959#Comment_118859959

From the consultation doc:

Existing Services

An average of 200 daily rail journeys were made in 2019 between Cork and Limerick.

Appraisal

Modelling of future demand shows that an RS1 service would generate around 700 extra journeys per day between the cities.
RS2a and RS2b would further increase this to around 1,800 journeys per day due to the shorter journey time.
For all three options, the new passengers are primarily transferring from existing bus services.

Public Transport - Bus

Bus is the dominant form of public transport in the project area, comprising between 8 and 9% of all commuting trips. Between Cork and Limerick, approximately 210,000 trips were made on bus services during 2019.

210,000 trips per year/365 = 575 journeys per day (ignoring peak days). How would the additional 1,600 journeys (1,800 - 200 current) on RS2a & RS2b be drawn from from 575 bus journeys?

bk · 01-04-2022 12:27pm

Plus wouldn’t the intercity coach service between Cork and Limerick also benefit from the new motorway and reduction in journey time?

It would reduce to around a 60 - 70 minute journey, which looks faster then the train under all of those options. So I’d imagine that the coach would remain competitive, at least the non stop service between the cities.

BTW I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen, it absolutely should, just questioning the assumption here.

Glaceon · 01-04-2022 12:46pm

At the moment, the Foynes line joins the main line facing away from the station because the direct curve over Carey’s Road was removed in the 70s when the North Kerry route closed. I’m guessing there would need to be some significant reconfiguration around Limerick Check if they went with RS2a (the old direct route).

Hibernicis · 01-04-2022 3:03pm

@Heartbreak Hank @bk I'm just quoting the figures as provided. if either of you (or the conspiracy theorist on the previous page) want answers in relation to the published numbers, the base data or the modelling exercise that was conducted you could contact the Project Team. Per the project website they are available for consultation by appointment up to 31st May 2022.

Please contact us using one of the following methods and we will arrange an appointment with you:

info@corklimerick.ie

+353 61 973730

www.corklimerick.ie/contact

Hibernicis · 01-04-2022 3:29pm

This is the full brochure from the M/N20 project website, including the drawings. Posting here for reference.

MN20_Brochure_Eng.pdf

Hibernicis · 01-04-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118865507#Comment_118865507

That's only one of a multitude of issues that would have to be faced if RS2a were to be chosen. In fact demolishing the disused CIE social club and rebuilding the rail bridge over Casey's road to reinstate the Cork Direct Curve would be one of the less contentious issues. Can you imagine the ruckus that would ensue at the prospect of reinstating the level crossing on the Childers Road for 2 or more trains per hour. ! Anyway that is off the table for now as RS2a was always the least likely option.

AngryLips · 01-04-2022 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866329#Comment_118866329

Is it still a conspiracy theory if their published numbers simply don't add up?

Hibernicis · 01-04-2022 5:50pm

No idea to be honest. Why not ask the project team.

bk · 01-04-2022 6:49pm

I will ask the project team. But I'll also take the time to discuss it here on this public forum as we all have the right to do!

According to Heartbreaks post above it says "existing bus services"

So when they say "existing" I wonder are they modelling it purely against the existing bus services that currently run on the N20 and not on likely bus services that would run on a new and improved M20.

I suppose the planners can argue that they can only model it against what currently exist and not assume what future services their might be.

I'd argue that would be poor modelling as our experience of pretty much every other new Motorway opening has been that bus companies jump at the opportunity to make use of a new faster route on a motorway.

What we have seen on pretty much every new motorway, is actually significant increase in the numbers using buses and coaches on these routes and in general a reduction in rail use. I don't see why the M20 route would be any different.

Again, I'm not against this, I want this to happen, I was just very surprised to see them say it will take lots of passengers from bus services. That just seems extremely unrealistic.

bk · 01-04-2022 7:20pm

Actually reading the brochure posted above, I'm now convinced that the above modelling and assumptions were against the existing N20 bus services and not possible future M20 bus services.

It makes sense in the context where you are considering to go ahead with the rail option or the road option and if you went with the rail option there would be no M20.

However now that they have opted to go with the road option and the rail option is basically punted off to a maybe under the Strategic rail review, I don't think those figures are valid any more.

I'd assume that the Strategic rail review will remodel those figures against both the current N20 services and likely future M20 services.

BTW the above M20 report gives us an insight into likely bus services on this route. It says:

"The project has the potential to reduce bus journey times between the two cities to 1 hour 6 minutes."

"There is the potential to implement additional express services between the two cities to capitalise on the improved infrastructure and journey times. Bus Eireann are exploring the opportunity for Cork to Galway services with a target journey time of 2 hours 30 minutes, which can be facilitated by the N/M20 Project"

So realistically we would be looking at 1 hour 6 minutes for the Express buses, versus 1 hour 21 minutes for the RS1 route via Limerick Junction.

I can certainly see people opting to take the train, but the bus looks like it would be very competitive too.

L1011 · 03-04-2022 11:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862593#Comment_118862593

Most likely done at night and on weekend possessions, so there would be minimal if any diverted trains.

Deedsie · 04-04-2022 8:12am

If they have to lift the entire current track from Killonan and replace it with double tracking that will surely require an extended closure? I could be wrong but isnt it about 30 km of track we are talking about from Killonan to Limerick Junction?

I am sure some of the disruption could be dealt with at night but the line will have to be closed for some of the works.

L1011 · 04-04-2022 9:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877160#Comment_118877160

They've done this before with minimal impact (Clonsilla - Maynooth), the length of track doesn't really come in to the complexity of it.

Deedsie · 04-04-2022 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877281#Comment_118877281

Fair enough. I guess we will see what impact it will have once the work plans etc appear. Track renewal project on the Nenagh line will be completed later this year. Journey times will start to reduce after that with improved speeds etc. Next phase will be to automate the final 12 gate keeper crossings.

If that work has been done before the LK-LJ double track works begin. The Nenagh line would be in a better position to act as an alternative diversion route. Which could reduce the overall time required to complete the double tracking project.

MyLove4Satan · 04-04-2022 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862760#Comment_118862760

I have always felt the same. It should have been made in to a freight distribution center decade ago for starters.

Hibernicis · 13-04-2022 10:47pm

The MN20 Project team hosted two public webinars. @Limerick74 posted details here https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919193/#Comment_118919193

I typed up my notes from tonight's webinar and they appear here https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923792/#Comment_118923792

Rail got a brief mention. The following are my notes on the rail section of the discussion (extracted from my post in the MN20 Road thread)

Rail Related Questions

Why is option RS1 seven times cheaper than RS2a and RS2b? Because the only cost included is the provision of new rolling stock. The travel times and costings assume the existing single track from Kilronan Junction to Limerick Junction and the passing loop at Dromkeen remains as is. Double tracking is being actively looked at as part of LMATS and will likely happen at some point and would further improve travel times.

Will ~~Charleville~~ Buttevant railway station reopen? Outside the MN20 team’s remit but it would make sense. Suggested that those interested make representations (presumably to NTA/IE)

As I mentioned previously, The team are very keen to engage and would welcome questions, concerns, suggestions or feedback. They are willing to conduct physical, online or phone meetings. Appointments can me made using the contact form https://corklimerick.ie/contact/ or by emailing info@corklimerick.i

LXFlyer · 13-04-2022 11:01pm

Ummm, Charleville Station is already open?

It would be a brave scheduler that scheduled another train each way every hour without any extra capacity between Killonan Jctn and Limerick Jctn, assuming they want to have it at the opposite end of each hour to the Dublin-Cork service on the mainline.

Hibernicis · 13-04-2022 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923963#Comment_118923963

Charleville was a typo on my part, Buttevant was the subject of the question.

L1011 · 13-04-2022 11:26pm

Kilmallock's a bigger town than Buttevant and with a marginally more central station location - can't see either reopening without specific plans to build lots of housing.

cantalach · 15-04-2022 8:45pm

I’ve missed a detail somewhere along the way because something isn’t making sense…

The upgraded N/M20 will apparently enable an express bus to do the journey in 1h6m. The proposed new hourly rail service will take 1h20m. Bus tickets are usually cheaper than rail tickets. The railway station in Cork is further from the city centre than the bus station. Can someone explain why would anyone in their right mind take the train?

Zebra3 · 15-04-2022 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932487#Comment_118932487

At rush hour to avoid getting delayed in city centre traffic?

cantalach · 16-04-2022 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933507#Comment_118933507

And for the 20 trains per day that aren’t at rush hour?

LXFlyer · 16-04-2022 7:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933610#Comment_118933610

They may want to work on the train or they may prefer the comfort a train offers over a coach.

Also, under BusConnects far more city bus routes will serve the railway station which will make it more accessible. Not everyone is travelling to/from the city centre.

Zebra3 · 16-04-2022 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933610#Comment_118933610

You asked a question, I answered it. I’m not justifying the expenditure….

cantalach · 16-04-2022 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118937376#Comment_118937376

Yeah, sorry, meant to acknowledge your reply. Busy today…sick family member.

To my mind, over the fairly short distances we have in this country, the arguments for rail over bus are not compelling. The rail speeds would have to get a lot higher to make it worthwhile. This is true even between Cork and Dublin, not to mind Cork and Limerick. But I appreciate that we all put different weightings on the various criteria.

Cork to Limerick rail improvements

Comments

Existing Services

Appraisal

Public Transport - Bus