Would you support Ireland ending the common travel area with Britain?

fritzelly · 18-01-2022 6:44am

I personally hate the idea of British people being allowed to live and work in Ireland following Brexit

Last I checked there was considerably more Irish living and working in the UK than vice versa - so where you gonna home all these Irish that have to be deported back to Ireland, where are all the jobs gonna come from or will it just be more people on the dole

The Irish/UK thing is more than just the CTA - there is lots of familiar bonds between the countries beyond a piece of paper, more so than there is with the rest of Europe

OP has no idea what they are talking about

sydthebeat · 18-01-2022 7:13am

No

The OP is a silly idea

Cookie_Monster · 18-01-2022 8:43am

I would be in favour of removing the CTA with the UK in favour of joining schenegn and be further integrated with our fellow EU members rather than the pariah state the UK is becoming. There is little advantage to maintaining it at the expense of better relations elsewhere.

Unfortunitly the mess up north means it probably won't ever happen and we'll be stuck with the current arrangement.

Brussels Sprout · 18-01-2022 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492756#Comment_118492756

Out of curiosity have you lived in a British country? I lived in England for a time and I was quite surprised at the difference. Obviously there are a lof of things that we share (e.g. climate, language, landscape) but there are a lot differences too. Growing up in Ireland we receive all of their media so it feels like we're in tune with them culturally but when I was over there I just really noticed that they really are a different people. Also I was shocked at the ignorance I encountered about Ireland from them. I had previously lived in New Zealand and there didn't seem to be much of a difference in the average knowledge about Ireland between the people of those two countries despite one being next door and the other being on the other side of the world.

18-01-2022 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118493937#Comment_118493937

I have never lived continuously in the UK, no. That said, I have spent several weeks at a time in various smaller English cities through the years and worked with lots of English, Scottish and Welsh folk over the past 20 years both inside Ireland and abroad.

I don't believe we're 'the same'. I would personally much prefer the English to the Scots from an affability perspective, if we're speaking in generalizations. That said, I've also noticed a difference between regions within Ireland too -- Donegal folk are a fair bit different from Tipperary folk. Your average person from north Cork is different to Irish-identifying people in Co. Down. And don't get me started on Dublin, which doesn't feel anything like the Ireland I grew up in. I might be wrong but the fact that so many Irish people live in the UK, move to the UK, and find joy and entertainment and interest in so much of what goes on in the UK, suggests to me that the ties that bind us are pretty strong.

I am aware that many people in Britain don't know much or anything about Ireland, but I put that down to (a) it being a totally separate and much bigger country now (the population of Ireland and England were much closer in size at one time) and (b) an awful lot of people don't take much of an interest in anything anyway. It's the same here. I bet if you selected a random group of 50 Irish people, fewer than half could name more than three or four English counties. But the other half could probably name a heap.

On the whole, I think the shared history, language, landscape, and climate are very compelling.

I wouldn't for one moment favor Ireland joining the UK today though. That would be crazy.

Out of curiosity, what do you think are the biggest differences?

Brussels Sprout · 18-01-2022 3:39pm

I was working in a professional environment in a regional town so the people I would have been interacting with were educated middle-class types. Obviously that's only one strata of society but I would have worked in similar companies in Ireland so I could make a direct comparison with similar people here. I found that the English tended to have great manners but that came at the expense of a kind of aloofness. I guess it's what people call "reserve". It's kind of like they're holding back their real feelings and therefore have a much narrower emotional range. Personally I found that difficult to warm to. I found myself hanging out with a guy from Zimbabwe as I felt like I had more in common with him than our English colleagues.

I started to notice as well that the white English people look slightly different to white Irish people here. For example there are a lot more blonde people there and also you see a lot more people with sallow skin (kind of like Gary Lineker). I believe that, although there has been plenty of cross-breeding over the centuries, we have our roots in different tribes of people and this is still evident in the genetics even today.

I lived in a garrison town with an army base and a recruitment office for the British Army on the main street. Coming from a place where the military is practically a non-entity to a place where it's very overt was a little jarring. The town itself was quite grim. Even though it was was surrounded by the countryside the houses were tiny. I found it impossible to find a house-share with a garden because most houses didn't have any. I guess that's a byproduct of the higher population density there.

There seemed to be lot more income inequality over there. Like I remember seeing an advert for a cleaning job paying £6 an hour (this was in 2010). They don't pay the high rate of tax until much higher in the UK so you don't get that same societal wealth transfer that you get here. People can argue about whether that is fair or not but one thing it does is reduce dire poverty. I lived in a few houses with cheap rent and there seemed to be dire poverty in those areas - similar to that TV show Benefits street. Now obviously we have poor areas here too but I went to school in one of them and this was on a different level. As an aside I checked the area after the Brexit vote and it voted for Brexit with over 60% of the vote.

Beyond that then there all the little things that make it obvious that you're in a foreign country:

Different coloured post-boxes, signs and road-markings (those squiggly lines for example)
Going into a pub and not recognising the majority of the beers and ales
Free healthcare (this was a welcome surprise when I had a GP visit)
Being able to easily get around by train (also a good thing)
Less fields in between stations on the train since it's far more developed

Lemming · 18-01-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492849#Comment_118492849

Bear in mint that the CTA is not just a "travel" agreement (since it is intrincally linked from a UK perspective to the domestic "Ireland act" of 1949). Its [CTA] revocation would have profound implications for any Irish person living in either N.Ireland or Britain beyond simply being able to travel between jurisdictions since its revocation would result in said act being reviewed/repealed, and there are already a few Tory headbangers who want it repealed. We are - legally - not viewed as foreigners as soon as we rock up on British soil. That means we can vote in local & national elections and referenda, we can seek medical help, accommodation, etc. etc. without having to engage with the perverse, deeply incompetent and Machiavellian entity that is the Home Office and its "Hostile environment" policy, all whilst having to pay them large sums of money for the "privilege" of being treated as less than sh1t.

In revoking the CTA, every Irish person living in Britain or N.Ireland has their rights removed. That statement is ended with a full-stop because that is how total, and all-encompassing the ramifications will be. We are not just talking about travel.

We lose far more from revocation of the CTA than we gain from joining Schengen.

BalcombeSt4 · 18-01-2022 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216788/would-you-support-ireland-ending-the-common-travel-area-with-britain

No, with the Troubles over we should be making closer ties to Britain. Especially with the British left, Corbyn, Livingstone, Skinner, Galloway etc... people like that spoke out against the anti-Irish hysteria in England of the 70's & 80's as did Tony Benn (RIP).

peter kern · 18-01-2022 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495167#Comment_118495167

well but here is the thing, once there is a unified ireland , i would assume that unionists will still be allowed to travel freely to uk and live there as a sweetener but for the rest of the people it cannot really be that ireland should have more rights than other europeans. of course irish and uk people that have lived in the other country will still be allowed to do so aftewards, just like british people can still live in the country they had eu residency before brexit. But after unification it will be hard to sell to europeans why the irish should have more freedoms than the rest of europe.

with the current situation i think most people in europe are rather supportive of ireland, but i guess after an unification irealnd should not rely on this support longer than it needs to be.

garbanzo · 18-01-2022 11:33pm

Interesting discussion and I’m firmly in the “heart says Schengen but the head says retain the CTA” sine of the argument.

Not wishing to take this off topic but can anyone explain what is actually in the CTA for the British. Why did they agree to it in the first place? I’ve never really had a satisfactory answer to it.

For the record I benefitted from the CTA in the late 80s / early ‘90s working in London when there was precious little here. Been over and back many, many times but in recent years England has become a very strange sort of place.

g

18-01-2022 11:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216788/would-you-support-ireland-ending-the-common-travel-area-with-britain

You benefitted from tbe common travel area, you said you lived in Scotland for a while.

Thus by your own admission, the common travel area was useful and helpful, so no it shouldn't be removed.

Strumms · 18-01-2022 11:50pm

Common travel area should remain…

both for economic and social reasons…

Lemming · 19-01-2022 1:13am

@peter kern wrote:

well but here is the thing, once there is a unified ireland , i would assume that unionists will still be allowed to travel freely to uk and live there as a sweetener but for the rest of the people it cannot really be that ireland should have more rights than other europeans. of course irish and uk people that have lived in the other country will still be allowed to do so aftewards, just like british people can still live in the country they had eu residency before brexit. But after unification it will be hard to sell to europeans why the irish should have more freedoms than the rest of europe.

with the current situation i think most people in europe are rather supportive of ireland, but i guess after an unification irealnd should not rely on this support longer than it needs to be.

I'm sorry, where does unification come into the argument to revoke the CTA given the thread title? Doubly so given the OP who mentions nothing of unification, simply wanting to spite "De Brits"; the same sort of passion that gave us Brexit. All the feels, and reality need not apply.

Matters unification aside, you are making some whopper assumptions regards what comes after revocation of the CTA. The UK has already given us an instruction manual in how they will handle revocation of non-British people's rights to live in Britain. Appallingly and with great incompetence, with a twist of sadism on top. The Home Office are not issuing physical proof of acceptance regards the EU "settlement" scheme, and thus ensuring that all those people affected will fight a constant uphill battle every time they seek NHS attention, apply for a job, accommodation, banking, etc. due to the hostile environment policy, and will forever more also have the threat of further government cock-ups a-la the Windrush scandal seeing further distress and risk of deportation.

Given that bleak state of affairs, what makes you think that a bunch of Unionist Irishmen will fare any better? The little Englander sorts and the Tories don't see unionists as British - save when it suits to pander to media outrage or look for extra voting support in Parliament - but as Irish noting only, perhaps if their geography or current affairs knowledge is up to snuff, that they are from the "Northern bit" of Ireland. They would drop N.Ireland like a hot stone yesterday if they could, so unionists would most likely be told "move/apply before the deadline", followed by a dizzying display of incompetence regards processing of applications and forever-enduring stress for those throwing themselves at the tender mercies of the Home Office.

As I said before, we lose far more from revoking the CTA than we do from joining Schengen. The arguments for Schengen that I have heard most frequently are warm, fuzzy, feelings. Just like Brexit was warm, fuzzy feelings. Ireland is already a member of the EU, the only benefit that Schengen gives us is not having to wave a passport; we can do everything else. So what would we actually gain besides "showing solidarity" that we already show every day by being an enthusiastic EU member state? Well, we gain a large influx of returning Irish citizens en-masse, applying further upwards pressure on a housing market already dying in the gutter, further pressure across school places, the HSE from GP, dental, and opticians services to retirement home support for those older Irish returnees who have lived for decades in the UK, and further pressure on government pensions.

19-01-2022 6:22am

@Brussels Sprout Thanks for your reply. I enjoyed reading your observations.

I was working in a professional environment in a regional town so the people I would have been interacting with were educated middle-class types. Obviously that's only one strata of society but I would have worked in similar companies in Ireland so I could make a direct comparison with similar people here. I found that the English tended to have great manners but that came at the expense of a kind of aloofness. I guess it's what people call "reserve". It's kind of like they're holding back their real feelings and therefore have a much narrower emotional range. Personally I found that difficult to warm to. I found myself hanging out with a guy from Zimbabwe as I felt like I had more in common with him than our English colleagues.

While the aloofness might be a national characteristic, it might also be a function of the larger population. England and Wales together had a population of only 15 million in 1841 vs. 8 million in Ireland; perhaps the aloofness was always there, but maybe it developed more recently. If you read any English novels or short stories written before 1890, you can find evidence of a more chatty type of Englishman in bygone times. Personally I am a bit more aloof than the average Irish person, so that wouldn't bother me at all. Also, with a population an order of magnitude higher than Ireland's today and an enormous footprint on the world stage in terms of political and philosophical thought, literature and contribution to science, you do understandably get big country syndrome, which also contributes to ignorance of smaller neighbors. (Interestingly, Zimbabwe's population is only around 14.5 million; so, like Ireland, it's not a very big country either.)

I started to notice as well that the white English people look slightly different to white Irish people here. For example there are a lot more blonde people there and also you see a lot more people with sallow skin (kind of like Gary Lineker). I believe that, although there has been plenty of cross-breeding over the centuries, we have our roots in different tribes of people and this is still evident in the genetics even today.

Yes, they do have more of a continental, Teutonic look about them in aggregate. This is borne out in genetic studies where something like 35% of Englishmen have Germanic heritage, which is largely missing from the other nations on these islands. Still, in a decade where I am asked to believe, for example, that a Pakistani man and his covered wife are as Irish as I am because they happen to have an Irish passport, I don't find anything discomfiting about a higher proportion of blonde people on the neighboring island.

I am one of those Irish who has a more continental look. Before the days of smart phones, I did a lot of solo travel. In places as diverse as Denmark, Portugal, Bulgaria, Italy and Slovakia, local people would approach me and ask me for directions in the native language. I live in the Gulf now and some people start speaking Arabic to me, thinking I'm from some northern Arab country. A DNA test I did a few years ago on FTDNA says my genetics are 72% Irish, 21% British, and 6% Scandinavian. There are an odd few Norman surnames in my lineage but that's about it. The vast majority are Gaelic surnames.

I lived in a garrison town with an army base and a recruitment office for the British Army on the main street. Coming from a place where the military is practically a non-entity to a place where it's very overt was a little jarring. The town itself was quite grim. Even though it was was surrounded by the countryside the houses were tiny. I found it impossible to find a house-share with a garden because most houses didn't have any. I guess that's a byproduct of the higher population density there.

See, I love movies and stories about the British armed forces -- favorites of mine include Master and Commander, Sharpe, and I love reading about WW1 and WW2. One of my favorite films is Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon (filmed in Ireland about an Irishman, based during the mid 1700s, lots of redcoats, Prussians, and highwaymen; it's brilliant). I used to collect model aircraft as a kid - Hurricanes, Spitfires, Lancasters, Mosquitos (but also Me 109s, Me 110s, etc.). That said, I take the Peter Hitchens view that Britain should keep out of other people's countries and I would be very against Ireland joining NATO and I strongly advocate nuclear disarmament. I do think that Ireland should have a stronger military, though.

There seemed to be lot more income inequality over there. Like I remember seeing an advert for a cleaning job paying £6 an hour (this was in 2010). They don't pay the high rate of tax until much higher in the UK so you don't get that same societal wealth transfer that you get here. People can argue about whether that is fair or not but one thing it does is reduce dire poverty. I lived in a few houses with cheap rent and there seemed to be dire poverty in those areas - similar to that TV show Benefits street. Now obviously we have poor areas here too but I went to school in one of them and this was on a different level. As an aside I checked the area after the Brexit vote and it voted for Brexit with over 60% of the vote.

Again, a fair observation. It's a temperamental question for me. I think taxes in Ireland are far too high and that social welfare is too generous. That said, it's in no-one's interest to have more people living in poverty than is unavoidable. Historically, Britain never suffered from a Marxist revolution or a Red menace unlike a lot of peer continental countries, so on the whole I would say they haven't handled things too badly.

As I said, I don't favor political integration with the UK or any of its parts. It wouldn't suit Ireland these days. The interests and metrics have diverged to much. But culturally, I feel a great affinity with Britain.

Peregrinus · 19-01-2022 6:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497492#Comment_118497492

When the CTA was put in place, general UK policy with respect to the white dominions - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc - was that citizens could come and go quite freely, could settle in the UK, could work, etc. So Ireland wasn't really getting very special treatment here; the special bit was that it was being treated like a white Commonwealth country even though it had left the Commonwealth.

As the Commonwealth came to contain more and more non-white countries, the UK shifted their policy. Rights to enter/settle in the UK became linked to what was called "patriality" — in order to have automatic rights to settle/work in the UK, Commonwealth citizens needed to have a father or male-line grandfather born in the UK. (Not by coincidence, Commonwealth citizens who could satisfy this test would be overwhelmingly white.)

This change in rules didn't apply to Irish citizens, because they weren't Commonwealth citizens. They could have amended the Ireland Act to mirror this change, but there was no perceived need for this, since Irish citizens were overwhelmingly white anyway, and not much point in doing it since at the time, in the 1960s, virtually all Irish citizens had a UK-born male-line grandfather - anyone born in Ireland before 1922 was UK-born.

They could have amended the rules for Ireland in the 1980s, when they did a major overhaul of UK citizenship and immigration rules to remove overt sexism and racism, but by then any monkeying around with the status of Irish citizens in the UK would have been hugely politically charged. It would obviously be a sore point in NI, but it would also cause problems for the UK, which had a population at the time of nearly a million Irish citizens. And of course it would also have been largely pointless since the UK was in the EU at the time, and Irish citizens would have retained many of the CTA-type rights as EU citizens. So for all these reasons they left the CTA as it was.

peter kern · 19-01-2022 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497822#Comment_118497822

brexit ended the free movement between eu and uk i guess this is pretty simple, right know most europeans understand ireland needs a special solution but the day will come when this wont be the case.

Lemming · 19-01-2022 11:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118498319#Comment_118498319

So your argument boils down to "what will the neighbours think". It is not "pretty simple" because - as I am tired of repeating - this is about considerably more than a facile question of whether you have to wave a passport on your summer holidays or not.

peter kern · 19-01-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118498649#Comment_118498649

my argumemt is that brexit is brexit and only because of the special circumstances is Ireland allowed to stay in the CTA once there is a unified ireland its not schengen or cta it is CTA or EU.

Lemming · 19-01-2022 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118499517#Comment_118499517

And again, I shall direct you to the OP, who not once mentioned unification, simply revocation of the CTA to spite the British. Y'know, the same sort of thinking that brought us Brexit. You keep trying to bring this back to unification.

timetogo1 · 19-01-2022 2:56pm

Why would removing the CTA result in a hard border in Northern Ireland? British citizens could still come here without a visa. They just can't live or work here. That's easy to restrict. If you have a British passport (issued after some arbitrary date), then you can't get a PPS number. That doesn't sound like a hard rule to set up.

I've a few English colleagues that I work with. They're the brexity type. Happy to tell us we should leave the EU and also happy to move to Ireland for work.

garbanzo · 19-01-2022 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118498036#Comment_118498036

Clearest answer I ever got on the issue.

Many thanks Peregrinus, appreciate it.

g

Peregrinus · 20-01-2022 2:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118499931#Comment_118499931

UK citizens will require a visa or a visa waiver to enter the EU from 2022. The exception is Ireland, which they can enter visa-free because of the CTA. If the CTA goes, UK citizens will require a visa waiver to enter Ireland, unless some other arrangement is made. And that implies some hardening of the IRL/NI border.

peter kern · 20-01-2022 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118498649#Comment_118498649

coming back to this i would say its actually important what the neighbours think as the CTA is on rather thin ice now after brexit and the end of free movement and there is some amount of goodwill needed from the neighbours ...

i guess nobody really wants or should , open up a can of worms from official sides , but i wonder what would happen if eu citizens would go to courts complaining that uk people have more rights in ireland than eu citizens.

i would say given the complexity and friction of this matter this is likely not one of the matters that was 100 percent thought trough yet. ie peace in ireland vs eu citizens rights.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/german-law-journal/article/with-or-without-eu-the-common-travel-area-after-brexit/CF94D991A481424EC9E281C5E3DE83F5

C. The CTA and Brexit Negotiations

The CTA has seen both Ireland and the UK treat each other’s citizens more favorably than the citizens of other EU Member States, providing a level of equivalence to home citizens that EU law does not require. The UK therefore entered withdrawal negotiations with the EU braced for confrontation over the CTA’s retention.Footnote

90 Ireland, however, had worked assiduously to convince the EU Commission of its importance, and its retention became an uncontroversial element of the December 2017 Joint Report on the UK–EU withdrawal negotiationsFootnote

91 and ultimately the Withdrawal Agreement.Footnote

92 In keeping with the existing arrangements under Protocol 20 to the Treaty on European Union (TEU), Article 3 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland allows for the continued existence of the CTA, but does not mandate how the CTA operates nor clarify the legal regimes—whether domestic or EU law in origin—which will underpin its functioning. It moreover includes a potential sting in the tail, in that it authorizes the CTA’s continuation only insofar as it does not conflict with Ireland’s EU obligations. At the very least, this will mean that Ireland cannot match any freedom of movement restrictions placed upon the citizens of other EU/EEA Member States imposed by the UK after Brexit. Some commentators have suggested that such provisions could allow the EU’s judges to examine whether Ireland’s application of EU-equivalent social security rules to UK citizens moving to Ireland advantage them over any EU citizens who move from the UK into Ireland.Footnote

93 As such, the Withdrawal Agreement produced at best a tolerance of the CTA, but no safeguards ensuring that the rights that are associated with the CTA will be maintained.

jaqian · 20-01-2022 12:13pm

No. Not all Brits are responsible for the evils of the past. And for better or worse we have a shared history.

Sam Russell · 20-01-2022 2:32pm

Already, Ireland, at Dublin Airport checks all passengers for their identity, normally a passport is accepted as the document required, but a driving licence is also accepted for Irish passengers - even if they have come from Kerry Airport. This does not violate the CTA. The UK however does not check ID on Irish (or Channel Island) passengers, but that is their choice.

The main point about the CTA, and the Irish in the UK, is that by law they are not aliens and are treated very much as would UK citizens. Even if we join Shengen, that does not have to change - only the treatment of the border changes. Now NI is a problem as there would have to be a Shengen border either between NI and GB or between NI and here.

RedPaddyX · 20-01-2022 2:40pm

People are so unbelievably naive - we should not even be HINTING at the idea of removing the CTA. do people not see how incredibly fortunate Ireland is to have the benefit of free work, travel, trade with the massive UK economy AND the EU. We have the benefit of both and puts us in an incredibly unique and privileged position. It is precisely why we should never create united Ireland too. I work in London remotely traveling over once a month whilst living in a lovely community in Cork. My London colleagues are jealous.

10000maniacs · 20-01-2022 4:00pm

The common travel area works both ways.

There are hundreds of thousands of Irish people in the UK who's lives would be turned upside down by any legislation of that nature.

It would be a crazy move.

micosoft · 20-01-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130112#Comment_118130112

The irony of being 100% going with the Brexiteer/DUP position that there is a magical invisible border infrastructure solution available so we don't need the Northern Ireland Protocol... It's risible nonsense when they say it and nonsense when you say it. I'm not sure if you are a DUP or ERG member tbh pushing that line...

landofthetree · 20-01-2022 4:35pm

The Irish government will never ever want it to happen. Its the release valve when when have a recession.

In another 3-4 years when the housing bubble pops it will be needed to get our builders off the dole.

But it would be funny to see SF moan abour the ending of it in the event of a UI.

Lemming · 20-01-2022 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118506404#Comment_118506404

370,000 according to the latest census numbers.

Such a move would also directly impact the running of Irish institutions in short-order, so the fallout would fall back on Ireland as a significant portion of that 370,000 number return home in a short time period. Actions like this are never a one-way street, as many Brexit supporters are belatedly discovering regards their relationship with the EU.

Poulgorm · 27-02-2022 12:30pm

The CTA will continue, for a long, long time, because both governments are committed to it. As recently as 08 May 2019, it was re-affirmed by both governments:

08 May 2019: Joint Statement on the Common Travel Area:

Recognising the deep and enduring relationship between our two countries, the Governments

of Ireland and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have today

entered into a Memorandum of Understanding reaffirming our joint commitment to the

Common Travel Area (CTA), and to maintaining the associated rights and privileges of Irish

and British citizens under this longstanding reciprocal arrangement.

The Memorandum of Understanding was signed for Ireland by the Tánaiste and Minister for

Foreign Affairs and Trade, Simon Coveney T.D. and for the United Kingdom

by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office, the Right

Honourable David Lidington, CBE, MP.

The CTA involving Ireland, the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man

facilitates the ability of Irish and British citizens to move freely within the CTA.

Flowing from this right to move freely are associated reciprocal rights and privileges

that are enjoyed daily by British citizens in Ireland, and Irish citizens in the UK. These include access to

employment, health care, all levels of education, and social benefits on the same basis as citizens of the other State, as well as

the right to vote in local and national parliamentary elections.

In entering into this Memorandum of Understanding, the two Governments today reaffirm the

standing of Irish and British citizens in each other’s countries by virtue of the CTA.

For generations, Irish and British people have moved seamlessly between our countries, and

developed deep and lasting ties.

Although predating it, the CTA has also underpinned the Belfast / Good Friday Agreement.

The CTA has and will continue to enhance and nurture bilateral relations between our countries.

Both the Government of Ireland and the UK Government are committed to maintaining the

CTA in all circumstances, recognising it pre-dates Irish and UK membership of the European Union and is not dependent on it.

Neither Irish citizens in the UK nor British citizens in Ireland are required to take any action to protect their status

and rights associated with the CTA. Both Governments are committed to undertake all the work necessary,

including through legislative provision, to ensure that the agreed CTA rights and privileges are

protected.

In entering into this Memorandum of Understanding, the Governments of Ireland and of the

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland reaffirm the immensely important and

enduring nature of the relationship between our two countries and the unique ties between our citizens.

8May 2019

26-03-2022 2:08pm

The key thing that needs to be retained are the non-alien residency and working rights and they work both ways. There are a very large number of British citizens here too.

The NI border is also a very fundamental issue and the CTA is key in keeping that open and free flowing.

The sudden requirement for electronic authorisations for EU/EEA citizens (other than Irish people) adds a potential mess though.

It has always been the case that the CTA and different visa regimes do not apply to third countries’ citizens though. It’s just that this electronic authorisation issue adds complications. It is however also required to enter the Schengen area (doesn’t impact Irish citizens but does impact UK passport holders.)

The situation has always been awkward within the CTA for non EU citizens, and actually it’s the Irish side who were far stricter. In general the UK does not check passports / ID on the way in to British airports from Ireland, but Ireland has full immigration desk checks in the other direction.

I’ve an in-law who was born in China but is now an Irish citizen. When she was living in England on a long stay visa and was a regular visitor to Ireland she had to apply for multi trip visas and they were VERY definitely checked and enforced at Irish airports, even though she was a British resident at the time. She subsequently became a British citizen, and when she moved to Ireland permanently she opted to naturalise here as it’s her long term home, but before that she was subject to two visa regimes if she even wanted to visit for a few days.

It was a very onerous process too. We had to write a letter of invitation to her, provide a copy of passport and proof of financial support capability to even get the visa and that was for a holiday in West Cork for someone who was permanently resident in England and going out with an Irish guy for years.

Brexit has just put EU/EEA citizens in the same category as Americans or others visiting the UK with a 90 day visa waiver.

It’s a total mess for tourism in NI though, as nobody from the EU / EE- will be likely to visit now unless they’ve very specific desire to go there. Casual cross border trips are not going to be a thing anymore. Even if it’s only loosely enforced, I can’t see most tourists seeing it as being worthwhile crossing the border. Many continental Europeans travelling to Ireland don’t even necessarily have passports as they travel within the EU on national ID cards. Ireland doesn’t issue such a card nor did Britain ever have, so we’ve always needed passports (or an optional passport card.) So most of us have passports.

Can you imagine say a French family going to the hassle of applying for passports for 2 kids, applying for electronic authorisations etc all to go to the titanic museum or have a wander up to the giants causeway? They’ll just avoid crossing the border instead and it could even have an impact on trips to Donegal too as it means tourists will need to go there only via the West Coast routes. So it needs to start marketing itself with Sligo, Mayo, Galway much more heavily than Derry, etc.

I think NI tourism will suffer very badly due to this decision and ultimately they will have to seek a derogation from the UK law on this as it will inevitably do significant economic self harm.

The other point I would make is the Irish government might look at making it a bit easier for long term EU residents to naturalise as Irish. It’s far too expensive and cumbersome and I think if you’re here for 5 years plus, living, working and making your home here it is really shouldn’t be a massive ordeal.

There are also a lot of issues with EU countries that refuse to allow dual nationality. That should be dealt with by the European Commission as it’s a major barrier to long term freedom of movement within the EU. No member state should be allowed to block someone from holding multiple EU citizenships. None of us are declaring war against each other. It’s absolute nonsense. It’s a non issue for say France, Ireland etc but it suddenly becomes a problem in Spain, the Netherlands etc where holding other citizenship requires you to revoke your original one.

I also don’t see why we cannot integrate further into the Schengen Visa system. It only covers short stay visas and not long term residency or work permits. Ireland already issues visas and visas entirely independently of the UK system. Why can’t we just issue and recognise Schengen visas? Doesn’t make any sense that we couldn’t do so. It changes nothing.

Within the CTA residency and work permit checks happen bureaucratically if you attempt to work in a jurisdiction you do not have a visa for. That’s always been the case for non EU/EEA nationals in both Ireland and the UK. It’s just a case that with Brexit the UK / EU relationship ends.

Also we are an island so there is no possibility of just driving/walking into Ireland anyway. A seamless border can’t exist other than in bureaucratic theory. You will always have to get a plane or ferry between Ireland and the Schengen area, so you will always have to show ID. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense that a compromise where Ireland could be deeper integrated into Schengen, without disrupting the CTA couldn’t be achieved.

There are practical solutions to this. They need to be discussed calmly and rationally and without all or nothing logic or the tabloid like ranting from certain quarters, who enjoy a good flag.

fryup · 26-03-2022 6:22pm

OP what are you doing living there if you hate them so much?? stinks of hypocrisy

road_high · 29-03-2022 12:52pm

No of course we shouldn’t end the CTA, what a ridiculous idea.

KieferFan69 · 31-03-2022 7:18pm

Wasn’t born here but I think we should cut them finally off and stop letting them travel

Sam Russell · 31-03-2022 7:27pm

It is not a simple matter.

The CTA is a bit more than Irish and British citizens being allowed to travel from one country to the other.

Irish Citizens are not ALIENS under British law, and are treated as equal to British citizens in all matters (well, according to the law). This means they have free access to the NHS, can vote in British elections, subject to residence qualification, plus many more useful things. Now why would Ireland wish to change that?

Now, with a nasty hostile racist Home Secretary, and the Home Office conducting a hostile environment for foreigners as a matter of policy, things might change - probably for the bad.

Peregrinus · 01-04-2022 2:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862625#Comment_118862625

The CTA, strictly speaking, is just the travel arrangement. It's true that Irish citizens in the UK enjoy a special status, but this is not part of the CTA. The CTA has been suspended before (by the UK, from 1939 to 1952), without the status of Irish citizens in the UK being affected. (In fact, the current legislative basis for the status of Irish citizens in the UK, the Ireland Act 1949, was enacted at a time when there was no CTA in operation.)

So, the suspension of the CTA would not affect the rights or status of Irish citizens living in the UK.

That's not to say that the UK, if pissed off by the termination of the CTA, might not respond by altering the rights of Irish citizens in the UK. But this would be very controversial in the UK itself - it is UK residents who would be adversely affected - so they would think twice before doing it.

The real reason why Ireland will not for an instant consider terminating the CTA is that doing so would require us to operate migration controls on people moving across the RoI/NI border. We do not consider this either practical or desirable; our whole strategy has been to keep that border open in every respect. Why u-turn now?

(It's probably worth pointing out than when the CTA was suspended by the UK in 1939, they found it necessary to apply migration controls on travel between NI and GB - much to the chagrin of Unionists at the time. They did this because they recognised that applying border controls at the RoI/NI land border was impractical. The result was, in effect, and all-Ireland CTA, with migration controls applying between Ireland and Great Britain. If we were to terminate the CTA, we wouldn't have the option of applying migration controls on GB-NI traffic; we'd have no option but to try to control those moving over the NI/RoI border.)

Jim2007 · 01-04-2022 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862625#Comment_118862625

It is actually that simple, not as comprehensive as Schengen and it not even legally binding.

bertiebomber · 13-04-2022 5:40pm

Britain may be forced to close it down as we are taking in soo many Ukrainians & they don't want them over there we may have messed this up also.

13-04-2022 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922264#Comment_118922264

No they won't.

We haven't taken in so many.

Why is it that anti foreigner posters are literally everywhere at the moment, every thread they can shoehorn their views into.......

Margaret Clarke · 13-04-2022 5:53pm

The Irish passport is arguably the best in Europe if not, the world. Not only does it allow access to the free market of the European Union and EEA, but also the United Kingdom. No other citizenship (to my knowledge) offers such a privilege.

A Danish passport for example will allow access to the EU but not the UK.

Fuascailteoir · 13-04-2022 5:56pm

The Irish government definitely should have consulted the British government regarding the policy on migration though. Or at the very least provided detailed information to them prior to any announcements. The CTA should be protected as there are such close links between Ireland and Britain that it would be a disaster if it was relinquished.

road_high · 13-04-2022 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922264#Comment_118922264

Like the protocol, they can check passports etc at the GB points of entry

Peregrinus · 14-04-2022 2:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922339#Comment_118922339

The CTA arrangements apply only to Irish and British Citizens. The CTA doesn't give, e.g., a Ukrainian citizen admitted to Ireland the right to enter the UK, or vice versa.

For that reason neither government accepts, or has ever accepted, that it has an obligation to consult, or obtain the consent of, the other in relation to their respective migration policies for third countries. The UK government doesn't afford this to Ireland, and doesn't expect it from Ireland.

Beside, why all the fuss about Ukrainians? There is a much, much, much bigger discrepancy between the migration policies of the UK and Ireland. 520 million EU/EEA citizens have a right of entry and a right of abode in Ireland, with no corresponding right the UK. That's a discrepancy willingly introduced by the UK, by its own free choice to Brexit, and by its further choice to make that a hard Brexit. If the CTA can survive that, the UK would attract ridicule and derision if it were now to claim that Ireland's decision to admit Ukrainian refugees was too much.

Would you support Ireland ending the common travel area with Britain?

Comments

C. The CTA and Brexit Negotiations