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Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    There are children of all ages, grandmothers, and grandfathers killed here that a sign of an execution. Turns out 20 and 30-year-olds males and females, it is probably because there the Ukrainian civilian army

    Still a war crime to kill a captured combatant if that is what the retreating Russian army did here?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    To get this straight, according to you, if someone is 20 or 30 years old, and found dead, it's probably because they were in something called the "Ukrainian civilian army", but if not, then they were probably murdered

    Murdered by who?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    At least 400,000 Yemeni children under 5 could die of starvation this year without urgent intervention amid soaring rates of severe malnutrition driven by war and the coronavirus pandemic, four U.N. agencies said on Friday.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/yemen-security-malnutrition-int-idUSKBN2AC18V

    Where the all idiots on that thread showing Yemen flags in their account and losing their **** over that war. They only appeared in that thread because it was Russia they don't care people are dying it's all a pathetic moral outrage.

    Regards to this, i wait to see and just dropped images out of the blue, and haven't heard what Russia's response is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. You at how you have to weasel. Hilarious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I'm very curious to know which of the Bellingcat articles that you were shown "were good" journalism.

    You won't tell us though.


    What I think is happening here is that you found the first article on your usual propaganda feeds. Most likely some crank posted the article and some out of context quote from it. You were told that it was an example of "mainstream media" agreeing with you. You believed this. You never read the article or bothered to find out more about Bellingcat or any of the other stuff they do. You did this because you are extremely gullible.

    Then you posted the article and the opinion you were fed like a good little bot. But now you've been shown articles from the site that disagree with your silly conspiracy views, you realise that Bellingcat doesn't support you. So your instinct is to use your natural conspiracy theorist reflex and declare that all mainstream media is fake. But you realise you can't do this, as that would mean that the article you posted was wrong. And as we all know, you can't possibly be wrong.

    So you weasel around it. Despite probably never even having heard of Bellingcat until a few days ago, you invent this opinion that they are "capable of good journalism from time to time." Total bullshit of course, but it allows you to keep the article you posted, while dismissing all of the articles you don't want to believe.

    I'm sure you think you're very clever with this little trick. But I assure you, it's fooled no one.

    It's only served to make you look even more ridiculous and show how intellectually dishonest you are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    @Dohnjoe

    a) are you out of your fkn mind posting sick sh1t like this here? An wtf are you quoting me for to post this cr@p? Is there something wrong with you?

    b) and wtf are you quoting me for to post your sick cr@p? Its got nothing to do with me or what I said. Or with the significant role/or not of the US in event leading to... for that matter. Don't drag me into your sick agenda. I want nothing to do with you or this.

    c) wtf

    d) reported



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Out of curiosity, do you believe all of those victims were all Ukrainian military? Or are they crisis actors? Or...?

    Do you now accept that maybe Russia is targeting, attacking and killing civilians?

    But wierd to get all offended and pearl clutching about some pictures given what you were claiming about victims like that earlier in the thread.


    Personally, I think you're using the faux outrage as an excuse to bail out of the thread without actually withdrawing your claims or admitting you were wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are the poster that repeatedly said Russia wouldn't kill civilians. I'm not a fan of those photos being posted. But you've absolutely pushed a line that Russia wouldn't put a foot out of line including that killing civilians was because they were human shields. Well how do you explain those images? That is Russia killing civilians. Russia has committed numerous war crimes as part of this invasion and maybe you could stop downplaying it or blaming the Ukrainians for not surrendering...


    Meanwhile @Cheerful S is actively trying to push the angle of a false flag by questioning the position of bodies... This is after him ignoring the wealth of info we've posted including the fact that Russia themselves were engaging in false flags to justify invasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    No you see, posting the pictures is unforgivably offensive.

    Arguing that those people aren't real or their murders were justified is fine though.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also worth pointing out that calimari and cheerful are using similar tactics. Their world view was challenged with credible info and they divert or attack. Eg I apparently want nuclear war.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Bet you a beer next up we'll be accused of always excusing American war crimes or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I don't care what sort of excuses you want to make for your chum. He crossed a line and I'm done talking to him.

    Also give it over already making up things I supposedly said. It didnt work before and its not working now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    You claimed, among other things that you thought it was not likely that Russian troops were targeting civilians.

    Do you still stand behind this claim?

    You claimed that it was more likely that civilian deaths were either faked, done by the Ukrainians or justified by Ukrainian Military using civilians as shield.

    Do you still stand behind this claim? Do you believe that is the case here?


    Personally, I think your bullshit, fence sitting, orwellian stance is far more offensive than posting pictures.

    You and Cheerful and other Putin apologists are trying to make these people not exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    @King Mob

    Personally, I think your bullshit, fence sitting, orwellian stance is far more offensive than posting pictures.

    Personally I think the one thing you guys avoid like the plague is talk about whether 'the USA played a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion'. So unless we can talk about that I'm done here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. Called it.

    But no, I'm challenging your claims from eariler. You're not "done" with anything. You're running away because your previous stance has become a bit tasteless.

    You are running away from answering the questions I asked you.

    Like I said, your claims that these people were more likely to be faked, or killed by the Ukrainians, or that their deaths were justified were far far more offensive that posting pictures of them.

    (I'm sure you're going to whinge about "not claiming that" but again, I asked you to clarify this directly. You declined to answer.)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've addressed that multiple times... You said Russia wouldn't kill civilians... You even started disputing wording in articles to downplay the murder of 300 civilians in the theater. But when proven otherwise by me, you ignored the post. Instead we got your deranged rant about Ukraine not surrendering.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    These are pictures from the news, they are in the main Russia thread

    You claim that Russians aren't targeting civilians, so how do you explain these scenes they are discovering north of Kyiv?

    Here's your post in case you have forgotten (you've made several claiming you don't think Russians are targeting civilians)




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    The biggest contrast between some of us and you guys don't question anything, Got the images oh that’s it Russian troops wiped out the entire town ( only explantation) and the Ukraine troops are now bringing to light the genocide.

    Find genuine video footage on Twitter that shows civilian bodies dead on the streets of Irpin and Bucha since the very start of the war!!! From weeks ago in early March!!!! None of this is surprising. People here have forgotten the urban battles on the streets between two armies which literally means the civilians have got caught up in the exchange of gunfire between the two sides and the artillery shelling and tank shells both sides are firing often are not accurate weapons and do land and hit streets and buildings.

    The new images (disturbing) may show Russian soldiers have committed war crimes?? Images taken by Ukraine forces how those one verify all this occurred this way and bodies were not touched and moved?

    Comparatively not a mass execution of hundreds or thousands of innocents.. Fake reports all night from that area too maintained the Russian army killed all males aged 16 to 65 in the area and found mass graves of 300 people. There wasn't the mayor said they buried 300 people in a grave but was all over the internet that mass graves were found. This war is interesting because see how easily people make up stories in their own heads about the crimes. I can see now what likely happened during WW2



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Who's "Some of us" cheerful?

    No one supports you and your insane ramblings.

    @CalamariFritti any comment on Cheerfuls claims? Do you agree with them? You aren't taking issue with any of his posts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You don't really question anything. You just use "questions" as an attempt to discredit information and facts you don't like.

    These bodies are not decomposed, they are in a newly liberated area of Ukraine which Russian forces have just left.

    As a Putin apologist I know you'll make some "concessions" in this thread in order to try and give your extreme views some form of fake objectivity, keeping that in mind, what is your most plausible explanation for these bodies?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Our world view is challenged?

    Russia has genuine national security concerns and was willing to negotiate but Ukraine and the West kept saying no. My concern is keeping the peace and keeping us all alive.

    Look at the horrible war we now ended up with because your worldview is what the majority believe in the west and the majority on boards. ie believe!!

    Was it really that much of a concession to let certain people in Ukraine stay with Russia and keep Ukraine out of Nato and have Ukraine do something about the neo nazis/Ukraine military? To me, these are all reasonable appeals and demands by Russia. Ukraine had some bargaining power before the war, now it gone Russia will win the south and east and may push further into the country till Ukraine is a shell of itself.

    This video I saw early today, pretty much sums up a lot of what I said this week. The dangers of dealing with these far right/militia groups constructively after the war ends. Zelensky was having a hard time before the war keeping them quiet. Zelensky not a bad guy/obviously good man in there, but he allowed this to brew for too long.




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, trying to use the idea of Nazis in Ukraine to try and minimize and justify what Russia is doing.

    Again, Cheerful is a holocaust denier. He has no issues with nazis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    "Russia has genuine national security concerns and was willing to negotiate but Ukraine and the West kept saying no."

    Right, but Putin stated that he was not going to invade Ukraine and accused the West of hysteria for even daring to suggest it. Putin then did invade, claiming genocide was occurring and that Ukraine was seeking to build nuclear weapons, what's going on there?

    Sovereign countries can join NATO if they so choose, Finland and Sweden are seriously considering it, they aren't allowed to do that? Russia has dominion over these countries?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Cheerful, frankly being an apologist for war crimes. Not exactly surprising from a Holocaust denier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Putin never said that all , that's the spin. Putin told the west what he need to avoid war and was not given it. Guys again have your version of history.


    Putin

    Our American partners are telling us they’re ready to start this discussion, these negotiations,” Putin said. “Representatives from both sides have been appointed. I hope that this is the way the situation will play out.” He added: “The ball’s in their court. They need to tell us something in response


    Putin’s comments marked an openness to resorting to diplomacy first, in a slight softening from earlier this week when he threatened to use Russia’s military if his security demands were not met. But the Russian leader also made it clear he viewed Ukraine as an existential, unfinished issue dating back to the USSR’s collapse in 1991, claiming that parts of its neighbour were Moscow’s “historical territories”.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why should we trust Putin? He literally poisoned the peace negotiators in March so he's not a trustworthy party. Now you're denying war crimes. It's absolutely shameful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Why should we trust or take seriously a holocaust denier?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You wrote: "Putin never said that"


    Strange, here's a full quote from Putin about genocide.

    "Ukraine in 2014, seized power and are holding it through sham electoral procedures, have given up on the peaceful settlement of the conflict. For eight years, for eight long years, we have done everything possible to resolve the situation by peaceful, political means. All was in vain.

    “As I said in my previous address, one cannot look at what is happening there without compassion. It is simply not possible to stand all this any more. It is necessary to immediately stop this nightmare – the genocide against the millions of people living there, who rely only on Russia, only on us. These aspirations, feelings, pain of people are the main motivation for us to take the decision to recognise the people’s republics of Donbas."

    What genocide?

    Likewise, here's a direct quote from Putin about nuclear weapons.

    "“The course of events and the incoming information show that Russia’s clash with these forces is inevitable. It is only a matter of time: they are getting ready, they are waiting for the right time. Now they also claim to acquire nuclear weapons. We will not allow this to happen.”

    Did Putin not say the above?

    Peskov, Putin's spokesman, pledged the Russia will "not attack anyone". There have been many similar statements from the Kremlin prior to the war. They didn't say these things?


    You wrote: "Putin told the west what he need to avoid war and was not given it."

    Putin made a list of demands including:

    They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.

    Does Putin rule or have some sort of dominion of sovereign nations like Ukraine, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and the Balkan countries?

    The world bent and scraped to Hitler's demands, didn't go so well, and these countries have grim experiences with the long repercussions that followed. Why should they bow and appease the demands of a totalitarian leader in Moscow?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S



    Right, but Putin stated that he was not going to invade Ukraine 

    The spokesperson for the Kremlin is not Putin. Mind boggling"

    Putin’s speeches never ruled out war with Ukraine. Link to that speech is proof of it, but yet continue to believe otherwise..

    I only answered this part.

    Have not got time to rubbish every point, but I take on one of your silly points.

    They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.

    Again untrue ( media report)

    "Russia wanted a limit to the deployment of troops and weapons to Nato’s eastern flank, in effect returning Nato forces to where they were stationed in 1997, before an eastward expansion"

    what going inside your mind thought this was Russia demanding a full retreat of Nato from Eastern Europe???//



This discussion has been closed.
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