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Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    While cheerful tries to rewrite history. Here's what Human Rights Watch have.

    And 45000 body bags indicates that they were very much so planning mass executions... They thought the victory would occur in three days and it's thankfully gone disastrously for them.


    Now, Cheerful to express some more nonsense and continuing to refuse to produce what his main sources are on the conflict.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    What genocide is Putin referring to in his pre-war speech? Is that a lie or is it correct?

    What nuclear weapons are Putin referring to in that speech?


    You wrote: "what going inside your mind thought this was Russia demanding a full retreat of Nato from Eastern Europe???//"

    Nope, he just made an absurd demand (from a list of ridiculous demands) that he knew would never be met to create yet another pretext for him to invade Ukraine.

    Simple question, can Finland choose to join NATO, yes or no? If yes, and Finland joins, according to you is Russia justified in invading Finland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Here we go didn’t take long did it. Sooner or later they be finding folders with Russian plans for gas chambers and mass grave sites and claiming Russia killed millions of people. It all interesting to watch this unfold in real-time. With social media can see the networks and media are working overtime to direct as much hate as possible at Russia for the invasion. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The technical standard around mass graves during war time was a state document that came out at the end of last year. It's linked so not exactly some invention. Now we have mass killings of civilians, 300 in the case of Bucha and you're claiming it's untrue.




    Interesting choice to mention the gas chambers since you're a Holocaust denier...


    Also Bellingcat have a map up where they document targeting of civilians and civilian areas. You'll write all of it off as "civilian army" though.





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Taking a break from talking about the Ukraine war and investigating every stupid claim posted here. Now there claims Russia planned an actual genocide of the Ukraine people before the invasion??? Believe it, am out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    That didn't take long. So, what is your best guess at what happened in the below video?

    There are a lot of these videos coming out now and photographs.




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You aren't "investigating" anything. You are just here to portray Putin as a victim, which you've been doing for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,026 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,133 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,133 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Would you please explain Bucha. And please cite your sources.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,866 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    I have been reading this thread but not getting involved but now I must multiple time you have defended the Russians of targeting civilians and it was the Ukranians doing. You have also wandered away from the USA "point of the thread" which I feel was a smokescreen anyway and when your point of few is challenged with evidence (maybe they should not have been imbedded photos) you fall back on the well this thread is meant to be about excuse to refuse to answer question. So how about for one give a straight answer. Not holding my breath for it. You are shameful in your cowardice to answer in relation to this IMO. I suppose you can't and really and unlike @Cheerful S can't make yourself try to spin excuses and not want to back down



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    As a heads up, along with apologism for the invasion, the denial is all coming as well, to predict some of this:

    1. "We can't know anything until official investigations", however any investigations by ICC investigators, Amnesty, HRW, etc will later be dismissed as propaganda or "politically motivated"
    2. Focus on tiny details or strange occurrences or coincidences to hint that situations are manufactured
    3. Dismissal of direct witness testimony of Ukrainians and locals because "that's what they would say"
    4. Claims that reporters/journalists are part of some campaign
    5. Any witness contradictions will be held up as clues that it's all fabricated
    6. Bodies are "moving" or alive or whatever, the claim that these are actors (being claimed by the Russian ministry of defense and already on conspiracy sites)




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,133 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Perhaps add to your potential list of Putin talking points by Russian invader apologists:

    Were the Russian soldiers in Bucha shooting at Ukraine’s soldiers hiding behind human shield unarmed civilian old folks, women and children? The poor citizens were in the way, and therefore collateral damage and not evidence of war crimes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Interested in what the other side says this is a Twitter thread, help you.


    Bucha was also heavily shelled look at the video Dohnjoe posted!!! Open your eyes there is shrapnel everywhere and wreckage everywhere on the streets both sides. Ukraine using Bucha for propaganda. Convinced the Ukraine side can't lie so this here doesn'tt matter!!!!

    Look at the road pavements ( on this video) and Dohnjoe one notice something very similar?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,133 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Makes me wonder if a thread like this would draw one or more of the Russian disinformation propaganda sources intended to muddy or otherwise adversely affect Ukraine’s chances of self defense? Would it be worth their time?

    It has been reported that the Russian Internet Research Agency has functioned as a coordinator of anti-Ukraine propaganda sources to aid the Russian invasion and discourage outside help. An example of online info-war in collaboration with the best interests of the invading Russian army.

    Thus far it appears that there have been many posts that focused on blaming the victim (Ukraine), and not Putin or the invading Russian military.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Shocker, @Cheerful S linking to people that are frankly abhorrent. Basically Sandy Hook conspiracies at an international level....


    Would love to know if you're now actively linking to Russian troll farm at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Just to confirm would you say it's just as likely the Ukrainians killed their own people in order to frame the Russians or more likely?

    And these Ukrainians below, would you say they were murdered by Ukrainian soldiers to frame Russia?

    I suspect you'll come back with we "can't be sure". Indeed. Can you explain what evidence you require that will confirm this for you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Already expressed my view on it.

    Bucka was occupied by the Russian army, Ukraine's army resisted them, shells and mortars hit the streets, and the ordinary people out in the open got killed. One of the videos you posted clearly a battle or barrage of fire hit the area as shrapnel and road potholes are everywhere damaged structures.

    Explantation for the other scenes. Pro Russian supporters wear white armbands and may be got shot by the Ukraine army for assisting the enemy. It’s also possible Russian army killed citizens who had weapons and also possible some Russian soldiers went off the reservation and shot helpless civilians. Open Russian soldiers done some bad things here. Ukraine tortured Russian soldiers you can see their eyeballs are taken out in some of videos i saw and there is video of Russian soldiers shot in the legs. Ukraine army not innocent there capable of staging an event to try to get the west to help them more.

    I expect to see considerably more dead people literally everywhere in Bucka this was a nazi style cleansing of the population by the Russian army.

    This operation was announced

    https://en.lb.ua/news/2022/04/02/12441_special_forces_regiment_safari.html

    After it, the videos and photos showed up even though the Russians left on the 30th, that means Ukraine had control of the town for 2 days, but they said nothing about massacres of civilians in dumps and houses for two days?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Said WMD never existed inside Iraq in 2000 all the mainstream loonies be saying I was lying. I just been around long enough in this world to not trust everything we got from intelligence agencies and see on western news TV real. Some people woke up after the Iraq debacle others stayed asleep.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    It's not worth their time, in my opinion. Why bother when others who have been affected by the disinformation will do it for free? The Russian IRA spread their shíte on the major social media platforms and the victims take that stuff and run with it themselves on smaller sites.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The two days is incorrect. Bucha wasn't fully reclaimed until the 31st. That's backed up by the reporting btw. So it was basically a day at most for the info to go fully public.



    Meanwhile plenty of the footage from the region has people who have been shot while there hands were tied. You're basically trying to downplay this to all your limited ability. But the accounts of what happened there are vastly different to the narrative you're trying to push.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But putin is telling the truth when he claims the Ukrainians are about to develop nukes? Or are developing chemical weapons?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    OK so your stance is that the entire thing was fake and staged by the Ukrainians.

    Cool. Sandy Hook stuff again.


    @CalamariFritti any comment on this? You were previously suggesting similar stuff. Do you agree with cheerful?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Bit confusing, but according to you:

    1. The people dead on the street have been killed by shrapnel, not bullets correct? You say the Russians attacked and Ukrainians resisted, but that was weeks ago, those bodies are fresh. You are claiming these people were killed with bombs? https://twitter.com/ronzheimer/status/1510733849222918152
    2. According to you, white armbands mean people are "pro-Russians" and they have been killed by Ukrainians, who are falsely claiming they were killed by Russians, correct? (from what I've read people were wearing white to show they were just civilians
    3. You seem to admit that the Russian army engaged in a "Nazi" style cleansing, by killing the civilians?

    So according to you, it's both an inside job and also real, right?


    And to repeat the other question, what evidence do you require to believe what really happened here?

    Post edited by Dohnjoe on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    My opinion will be dismissed anyway. There evidence in the video you posted of explosive ordnance landing near some of people on the ground and there some evidence that civilians may have got shot or knocked down maybe ( by Russian or Ukraine armor vehicles) there not lot of blood splatter around the bodies to verify shootings. Video not great since it just a quick passby.

    Here you can see a knocked tree and burned-out van. Something powerful came in and knocked over the tree.

    Can't tell if this is a body or some wreckage of something? Again right side see a crater hole.

    Another crater hole just slightly past the guy on the bike. House damaged.

    Smashed pallets of wood. The shooting does not look recent blood looks almost dried up. This here looks like an execution.

    Pavement smashed-up vehicle or shelling caused that? a guy next to it on the street.




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yes. Of course your opinion will be dismissed.

    You are a holocaust denier. You have argued that in your opinion the gas chambers are all fake.

    You have argued that in your opinion there was a giant mirror present in the wreckage of the twin towers.


    Your opinion is meaningless.

    Your interpretation of photos as if you're a forensics expert is meaningless.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,133 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The content and context of Putin propaganda talking points appears alive and well on this thread. All contributing to the justification of the Russian invasion and the killings of thousands of innocent men, women and children initiated by Putin’s Russians in their quest to bite off and annex another valuable piece of Ukraine, just like they did in 2014 Crimea.

    Of course it may appear at this point that Putin thought he could quickly overwhelm Ukraine by capturing the Capitol, installing a puppet government, which would give him his next valuable piece of the country to annex in exchange for a puppet peace. “Peace for a Piece.”

    The puppet peace appears to have been Plan A. But Ukraine learned a bit about Putin’s “Peace for a Piece” from the 2014 Crimea Russian attack and annexation. Ukraine offered unexpected defense of their Capitol and homelands, making Plan A too costly.

    Now comes Plan B. Putin withdraws and repositions most, but not all of his forces to southeast and southern Ukraine, concentrating in a second attempt to overwhelm Ukraine with the larger and more sophisticated Russian military forces concentrated at that point.

    All Russian forces will not be withdrawn from the north, but rather to keep just enough in defensive positions to tie up a substantial part of the smaller and less sophisticated Ukraine army and armed civilian Capitol defenders from shifting south where Putin implements Plan B.

    The Russian initiated devastation and thousands of Ukrainian civilian deaths will continue in the valuable sea port of Mariupol until it surrenders or is completely overwhelmed. That valuable port increases Russian access to the Sea of Azov, while at the same time weakening Ukraine’s commerce, thereby making Ukraine a weaker target for a future 3rd “Peace for a Piece.”

    This new Russian repositioning and concentration in the southeast and south may also allow for capturing a land bridge between mainland Russia and annexed Crimea; which will be annexed accordingly. And if the Russian military concentration sweeps the south and overwhelms the Black Sea port of Odesa followed by annexation, Russia will economically benefit, thereby paying for their war, while Ukraine will be further commercially weakened for the future 3rd “Peace for a Piece.”



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As the days go on, we're likely gonna learn more about what happened in Bucha and it's most likely not limited to Bucha. Meanwhile Cheerful is gonna release Russian state media statements and some dodgy Twitter accounts. Eg saying Russia was gone on the 30th is from the Russian state. I honestly dunno how anyone can do happily delude themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    He equates being contrarian with being a rebel thinker. He equates that with being special and smart.

    The fact to do this He has to be basically just a spambot to do this doesn't cross his mind.

    He still does not realise that no one is impressed or intimidated by his "radical views".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,928 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The Russians didn't just walk into Bucha with zero resistance, the Ukrainians fought them

    This happened weeks ago. It's not surprising there is devastation everywhere.

    Where are all the bodies from this fight? Exactly, they are gone and removed.

    However in the below scenes (warning on this) these bodies are obviously freshly killed

    I'm not an expert, but I've seen countless images from this conflict and others, and these people don't look like they were killed by bombs and "shrapnel". The Russians didn't withdraw from this area "under fire", they made the decision to leave, and leave quickly.

    My question (for the third time): what evidence would convince you that these people were killed by Russian soldiers?

    The Russians are claiming this is all fake, that not a single person in Bucha was killed under them, they were there handing out aid, do you think that is a lie yes or no?



This discussion has been closed.
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