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Munster v Leinster

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    See, that makes sense to me. But the first time, it read to me like your example was backing up your original point. Whereas instead it was an example of the corollary, demonstrating the varying opinions. So can we call a truce?

    Personally, my impression is that now I think a majority of fans are now calling for Casey to start.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Do you have a link for these or is it behind a paywall? I'd keep an eye on his stuff, but haven't seen him suggest either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan





  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm a bit surprised a Leinster fan pays for his stuff, tbh, but fair enough.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    2 euro is hardly going to bankrupt anyone and usually his stuff on ireland is good.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    apparently so yeah.

    fair play if he managed to turn his life around like that.

    still this leinster loss has sent him for a loop, hasnt taken it well at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    He is being hyper critical of Munster for not playing the ref and being meek. That’s what I am reading from that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    To be perfectly honest, that reads more as "Munster soft, Leinster tough/hard" than "Munster fair, Leinster dirty" and is more a criticism as to the Munster forwards than anyone else.

    LSD has already pointed out that he's willing to accept playing on the edge with regards to Archers shoeing a couple years ago - yet when he brings it up in this context people seem to think he's bitching?

    Again, by no means is he an unbiased neutral party (hell, nobody is) but these are awful examples ye are using to try and prove anything.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,764 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and think he's saying Munster lacked aggression rather than anything pointed at Leinster. I'd also be annoyed if my team didn't play the ref.

    Though I'm a bit unsure on this idea that the ref allowed the game to become a mess. He blew for 20 penalties, if the game is still a mess with that many penalties given, its the players' fault.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    It would appear that the line between a ref being overly lenient and overly pedantic and whistle happy doesn't really exist....

    At least to some posters.

    For me the ref was very good. The RFU referees have all been the highest standard of reffing for a good while now and I'd be interested to know who oversees them.

    Their communication with the players is always calm and measured and fair. But they're very good at showing their human/fallible side. Rugby is an overly subjective game and they have to make decisions. RFU refs such as Barnes, Carley, Pearce and now Ridley all display strong communication with a very relatable tone and demeanour and games have improved as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Barnes is, for me, comfortably the best referee in the world. He's very clear in his communication with players as to why he has made a decision.

    Post edited by Clegg on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    “Rugby is an overly subjective game and they have to make decisions.”

    Strongly agree, tbh. I have a suspicion that rugby might be the most difficult sport to referee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,433 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    If it was in a vacuum, yeah sure, benefit of the doubt. However, there's plenty of previous form (I'm not even on twitter and I know that) here so I'd have to go with no benefit of the doubt. Whoever the person is is as one eyed as you get.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Yeah there was that stuff. And then there was this stuff.


    There undoubtedly has been a narrative getting peddled that Leinster are quality cheaters who bring the violence against the nice guys of Munster. Now I get the “nice guys” but isn’t meant as a compliment, but painting the issue as Munster being a bit too soft compared to Leinster isn’t exactly cutting edge analysis. Also, the ref was actually pretty good I thought. And I was saying that even when Leinster were behind coming up to half time.

    Munster have numerous issues across the park, and some of those were exposed on Saturday. The starting front row is decidedly average. The second row without Beirne (and Snyman, but can we count him given his lack of availability?) is poor. The back row is a step down from most top sides. The half backs are grand, but not great. The centres are overrated IMO. I don’t think DDA has delivered on even half of what should have been expected from a big marquee signing. The back 3 has talent but there’s no depth there, and that was very obvious the other day. But instead of saying that there’s a gulf in talent and certain positions are issues that desperately need resolution, we get….

    Munster will fall short most of the time because their players and coaches aren’t at the quality of Leinster. Not because of any violence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Then you should try living this decade. Barnes has been consistently the best ref in the world since Owens fame went to his head



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,981 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes the RDS has only about 3/4s the capacity of Thomond but we're normally not half full



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Thanks. Appreciate it. If that is the incident, it's a nothing burger. Good clearout the puts Murray on his back. It wasn't in the first minute so I guess the OP who started ranting about it, was lying.

    Don't suppose you came across any footage of the heinous throat strike?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭Boscoirl


    I had a good view of it from my side and saw a replay at HT . it looked like Lowe picked him up by the leg and drove him into the ground on his neck.

    the citing commissioner noted it at the time for further review(not that it means that it would/should go any further)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    The centres are a big issue for Munster, I think. In attack, the duo of De Allende and Farrell have never overly worried Henshaw and Ringrose in any game they've faced off with each other. Last Saturday, there were times when they tried playing a wider game and they made some yards on the outside. But any attacks that involved a hard carry from a Munster centre were dealt with easily. The best example I can think of is last season's league final.

    Defence is a much bigger issue though. Munsters centres couldn't live with the decoy running, carrying or passing. I think that's more of a symptom of Leinsters general dominance in the forward exchanges though. Munsters centres just found it difficult to ever settle into the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Had the chance to rewatch the game. What stood out for me this time around is how well Leinster kicked in the second half and how poorly Munster dealt with it.

    I think Leinster identified that Munster had no real counterattacking gameplan. So Byrne put in a lot of kicks down the middle of Munsters 22 which forced a Munster player to shuttle across the pitch to retrieve it. And with no real counterattacking option available he was forced to punt it away which resulted in a territory gain and an attacking lineout for Leinster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    From that clip, looks like he lands on his back. Do you have a link to the citing commissioner putting it down for further review?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭Boscoirl


    I sit beside the citing commissioner in TP. He has a multi feed tablet where he can bookmark and review potential incidents. He had several from the first half. Most of which he deleted at half time. The two he had left were that one and the Coombes one. There was several for the 2nd half too don’t know if any of those were kept

    to me, from the other side to the main camera. it looked like he landed on his neck/Shoulders


    the citing commissioners are quite friendly, nearly always good to chat before the game and sometimes at HT I leave them alone during the game

    every game has about a dozen potential incidents from my observation with any citings being very rare



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Ok. I'll believe you that you sit next to citing commissioner and that you chat to them and see what they bookmark for review. Has there been a citing?

    You say shoulders/neck and think it was on his back. Upper back. But would you agree that it wasn't from a height and he wasn't dropped? Lowe had hold of him the whole time?

    Also did he bookmark the throat strike on Murray?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Upon rewatch a significant and historic issue for Munster once again reared its head.

    Munsters tight 5 and bigger ball carriers first instinct is never to move the ball. For the flack that Jenkins got with 2 soft turnovers at least he tried to get his hands free.

    Loughman is a decent baller as is Coombes obviously and Tadgh Beirne stands head and shoulders above them both. But Munster can easily be isolated in attack when teams target those who they know wont pass.

    On 50 minutes. Kendellen makes probably Munster best play of the game. He gives a huge hit on Doris driving him back and gets straight up to his feet and starts to counter ruck and gets an excellent turnover. He is greatly assisted by a strong involvement from Fineen (who comes completely in the side FWIW....)

    Ball goes to Jenkins who immediately ships on to Scannell and he wastes a chance that I'd be expecting 15 year olds to exploit on turnover in the oppo red zone. An early pass there and it's a 4 on 2 and Pete and Cloete are SCREAMING for it. Scannell runs sideways into 2 Leinster players, doesn't put his head up once, doesn't look for the offload. Nothing. Absolutely abysmal play here. But it shows a lack of willingness to move the ball.

    Jenkins picks and goes and tries to keep momentum and free his arm for an offload but it is a soft turnover from him too (as well as a very smart bit of play in the tackle by Ross Byrne)

    It's just genuinely maddening to see the best bit of play by Munster immediately followed up by the worst bit in the space of 5 seconds.

    At that stage it's 19-12 and a well coached team with genuine killer instinct puts 7 or at least 3 in these situations and get the ball back with a total momentum shift. It's moments like this games swing on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "The really telling thing for me is how content the Munster players and management (and Jerry Flannery & Peter Stringer in post match analysis) all seemed with the Munster performance. They're now happy to feel like they're in the game for a brief period."


    Yep, that amazed me too when I heard it. But I was switching between Premier Sports and RTE so I didn't pick up on eveything that they said. I must say, I far prefer Quinnie's passion and evident disappointment, to their bland acceptance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Ha we're not going to agree mate and that's ok. I can respect that.


    ...... However I wouldn't be using Owen Doyle as an example. He was director of referees in the IRFU overseeing and mentoring the likes of Peter Fitzgibbon, George Clancy and John Lacey. I wouldn't have him ref a thumb war. Much less heed what he has to say



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Personally, I’d like to see more angles, but I think it goes beyond the horizontal. If it went to the TMO, I think their penalty advantage could easily have been overturned and it could’ve been a card, imo.

    (Edit: just to be clear, I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as OP was making out).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’d largely agree with that, but even the best ref in the world can have an off day. The one that comes to mind for me was a Munster v Castres game where he missed 2 red card incidents during the game. (Both went to citing commissioner and bans were handed out).

    If that can happen even the best ref in the world, I think it speaks even more so to your original point for how difficult a game rugby can be to ref.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    Far too much guff on RTE post-match I thought about how it's ok for Munster to be well-beaten in this game as Leinster are "the best club side in the world"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I think the take on Barnes as being a poor ref - which I completely understand historically - is simply no longer accurate. He's been (one of) the best for a while.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    They were going on as if Leinster were four-in-a-row European Cup champions rather than league champions. Leinster haven't won the European Cup since 2018, and they've only won it once in the last decade. How can they possibly be considered the best club side in the world?



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  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    It didn't make much sense to me either

    Winning this league is certainly no global benchmark and ERC cup wins have not been present in regularity.

    From the same book of hyperbole as the much-trotted out "best front row in the world" (gone quiet on that front since playing France).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,634 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Barnes is definatley a good ref but hes far from perfect, and he has made some terrible mistakes at times.

    Watch the highlights of Exeter vs Bath last weekend and he awarded a try that was grounded after he blew the whistle.


    and while your watching it, take a look at some of the side entry, worse angle than toners for some of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,631 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    My entire point the whole way through this thread was that Munster let themselves be bullied.

    James Lowe dumping Murray on his head at the start of the game should have caused the rest of the Munster team to react but they allowed it, and apart from a few younger players, Munster stood off them and waited for the referee to do the reacting. Leinster were pro-active, set the intensity, threw in the 'marginal' shots from the start and set the tone of a humiliating dominant performance.

    Munster need to do that same thing to Leinster in the RDS

    Munster used to be a hard tough team that Leinster used to hate playing. Now it's just a nice day our for them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,631 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yeah. **** that. When I hear Leinster pundits in the media complimenting Munster for showing heart in a comprehensive home defeat against leinster its a million times worse than them slating us for under performing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Same way they refer to Munsters “European Pedigree” and “Top Sides” in Europe. They’re Irish pundits, of course they will big up their own teams.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,942 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Don't listen to Alan "showed great pashun" quinlan then or your head will explode



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    It was actually Munster's own Flannery saying that Leinster were "the best club side in the world" I believe

    A not very credible attempt at excusing the facile win for the opposition



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,631 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Leinster were pro-active, set the intensity, threw in the 'marginal' shots from the start and set the tone of a humiliating dominant performance.

    Munster need to do that same thing to Leinster in the RDS

    It won't help them. Leinster didn't win because they threw in "marginal" shots and set the tone, they won because Munster were incapable of producing anything to break the Leinster defence. If Munster want to win, they don't need their tight 5 to be throwing digs in rucks, they need them to learn how to pass the bloody ball.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The French pundits still go on like that, along with praising Munster's passion and the forteresse of Thomond



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Had a quick look back at this and htink he's almost certainly gone beyond the horizontal. (that's Murr's foot over Doris' head). Don't think you can clearly see where Murray lands on this angle. Real chance it could've been a card tho, would really like to have seen it being reviewed by the TMO.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    That was only Munster's 6th loss at Thomond going back to the start of the 2017 season. And 4 of them have been against Leinster, the other 2 being v Toulouse and the Rainbow Cup game against Connacht.

    We obviously have an issue v Leinster, but by any measure, that's an extremely solid record.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    Hopefully Peter O'Mahony won't go into punditry or TV Sets around the country might just explode with pashun-overload - possibly without him saying a single word.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,634 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Dan leavys unfortunate news is interesting in the context of the Toner / Coombes debate.

    While its unfortunate anyone gets injured when it happens as a result of something illegal its not to say they are linked, but it should give a sharp focus to referees that illegal entry to rucks can result in career ending injuries because of the angles involved.

    The best of luck to Leavy, and a speedy recover for Coombes hopefully.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not a fair link to make, and just keeps the pointless debate ongoing.

    If Coombes had been cleared from a straight ahead position (if Toner had gone through the gate) he was still going to hurt his ankle when it was trapped like that under one of his own teammates.

    Rugby is an inherently dangerous sport and injuries like that happen, it's the definition of a rugby injury.

    The real question should be as to why the Munster medical team didn't take him off the field immediately; but left him out there. He caught the ball off the restart and had a big carry, potentially exacerbating whatever injury he had already sustained.



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