Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

dybbuk · 05-04-2022 12:05pm

Why do you insist on hijacking the thread?

What part of "leading to" don't you understand?

"leading to" - can by definition only refer to the timespan preceding the war not the war itself.

If you require a specific interval to comprehend what "leading to" means, I can provide you one:

30 years: December 26, 1991 to February 24, 2022

Events prior to the dissolution of the USSR could of course still be considered as "leading to". But, quite clearly, all the events after the war started are outside of the scope of the question. "leading to" means discussing the causes, you are still derailing the thread towards the consequences.

Please just stick to the topic or leave the thread!

05-04-2022 12:08pm

Woman is beaten by husband. Gets away. Gets restraining order, husband promises to leave her alone. Husband wrecks a bit of her garden and says it wasn't him but that he supports whoever did. Husband keeps being spotted around her property. Says she's a Nazi and she's torturing people. She goes to a self-defence class. The husband feels threatened so kills her and burns her house down. Somehow it's the self-defence instructor's fault.

King Mob · 05-04-2022 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883077#Comment_118883077

But again, you're whinging at the wrong people.

So far the only people on these thread who want to "discuss america's role in the events leading up to the invasion" have been claiming that Russian Troops aren't targetting or attacking civilians. Some have claiming that attacks on civilians have been staged or faked or done by the Ukrainians themselves. Some are conspiracy theorists who believe that the vaccines are part of a global conspiracy or that the Holocaust is being inflated by the Jews.

What discussion do you think can be gained from people like this?

Dohnjoe however has asked you a very on topic question that he has repeated several times on this thread. And like in those other instances, you've ignored the question.

I don't think you or the OP are actually looking for serious discussion. You guys are looking for excuses to bash America and not think too hard about what Russia's up to.

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881933#Comment_118881933

I find this all too funny now. For days on here debunkers ( you and others) said the bodies on the video posted by you are fresh and the killings happened recently.

They Debunked my analysis on this thread like they normally do and some claimed I was peddling the Russian line about the killings ( did you read my posts).

Yesterday NYT times pretty much had a similar view about the bodies as I did. Even noticed the bomb crater near the bodies and so on.

dybbuk · 05-04-2022 1:14pm

I am not "whinging" at anyone. You appear to be whinging at me.

The Holocaust is not up for discussion here and the attacks on civilians are even less so: I just explained it above: a consequence, never mind how terrible it is, will never be the cause.

I didn't see Donjoe's question and I never claimed that I would provide a detailed explanation or a version of history that would satisfy you or Donjoe.

I wasn't on Maidan in 2014, I do not work for the CIA and I don't have time or energy to invest in defending a "Conspiracy theory".

But I did some research and I (preliminary) conclude that the answer to the OP's question is "Yes". I can briefly explain what I believe happened:

When the USSR was dissolved, Gorbatchev was assured by the US the NATO wouldn't expand. But it did and the US was the main driver. Initially Putin also trusted the West but he has been complaining about NATO's expansion for over 20 years. The Russian Federation is not an empire like the USA but it still considers itself a super power. Putin could/had to tolerate other former republics-now countries turning on Russia but not the Ukraine for many reasons. One of them being is that the Russians do not see the Ukraine as a separate nation. Kiev used to be the capital of Russia for centuries. One could argue that this is a civil war.

What administration? Again, ask the CIA. I'd say all of them. "Divide and rule" is a strategy employed by the empire. Maybe GW stands out a bit in this respect

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia

But who knows? It may have been Obama or maybe it is JB. JB could have definitely prevented the war by agreeing to some of what Putin demanded...

I don't think it is only the US that is guilty anyway. We/you all are. But who is to gain from it? Certainly not Russia and Ukraine.

They turned Iran on Iraq, Chilean on Chilean. That is what they do.

King Mob · 05-04-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883399#Comment_118883399

Yes. But if someone believes the holocaust is fake, what does that tell you about their understanding of history and world events?

If someone is going to pretend these crimes didn't happen or justify them, what does that tell you about ther willingness to understand what is happening now?

Also, I'm a bit confused.

Are you saying that Russia invaded because they were afraid of Nato, or because they believe that Ukraine should be part of Russia?

In these options, what agency do the people and leaders of the Ukraine have?

Also, really odd gap in your list of US presidents there...

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883394#Comment_118883394

There are a lot of bodies in Bucha, not just on that road. I pointed out that some of the corpses appeared fresh which they do (perhaps its the cold weather). Journalists who visited the scene said the corpses were a few days old. Perhaps they meant at least a few days old.

Bucha is covered in devastation from the invasion. You saw this devastation in some of the pictures and decided that's how the people died. Okay. No one else made that observation, in fact, observers on the scene said many corpses appear to have been shot, many to the head.

You also made claims that the scene would be "sanitized" but you refuse to clarify what you mean about that. Likewise you claimed you believed some of it was staged, but you seem to have dropped that.

mcmoustache · 05-04-2022 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882104#Comment_118882104

Plenty of people are against large countries invading smaller countries and raping, looting and executing their civilians. As humans, we generally don't like that sort of thing - it's why pretty much every country has laws against theft, rape and murder. These are universal things that people tend to be against.

I know that taking a both-sides approach to such things can make one feel enlightened and superior to the simplistic folks who take a black and white approach to murdering children but it's not original or clever. Hell, I can tell that you know that you're aware of this, otherwise you wouldn't try so hard to mask and hedge your stance.

patnor1011 · 05-04-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883460#Comment_118883460

Agreed with exception that I do not feel enlightened or superior. I do not take both sides approach, as both of them are in the wrong. This conflict did not start last month and there was plenty of time to sort it out before invasion happened. It was only escalating ever since it started in 2014 and it is absolutely pointless war, pretty much like brothers killing each other. Both parties are slavs and there is close to zero difference between them. My point is that any, even little deviation of this current crazy warmongering attitude shouting about using nukes or executing POW's and talk about hating whole nations is ridiculous. The war in ukraine or this thread just show how little is needed for people to start hating each other.

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883440#Comment_118883440

Really this not your writing? NYT the bodies on the street are there since March 11th if not earlier.

05-04-2022 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883394#Comment_118883394

You were peddling the line that the Russians used, though, anyone can go back and see that....i.e. that the bodies weren't civilians killed by the Russian Army, but rather they were either a) Ukrainian soldiers who'd been made to look like civilians, or b) actors who weren't even dead, and that when Russia left, there were no bodies. The nasty Ukrainian nazis killed these people then made it look like the Russians did it. That's the official line.

You yourself hinted at both A and B above on separate occasions. Remember? It was only two days ago when you hadn't heard of the city of Bucha and kept calling it Bucka?

NYT had no such similar views to you. They have views that completely and totally blows the official explanation out of the water (i.e. they left no bodies behind and UKR forces moved them in to make them look bad). But, no, you cannot now claim that your hateful theories have been legitimised by the NYT.

I thought you despised the MSM, anyway? Why are you trying to align yourself with them? Are you literally that desperate for legitimacy now that you'll abandon all of your principles to try score a win after the shitshow you've been putting on this week?

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883399#Comment_118883399

Quite a reach into the past there.

Apart from that you pretty much blame Putin for the war. The world tried appeasement with Putin for a decade, doesn't work, the Russian demands a few months ago were so ridiculous that many suspect they were just a pretext.

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883560#Comment_118883560

Complete and utter nonsense. When did i claim the bodies are actors? Cant find that post, apologise.

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883545#Comment_118883545

Bodies do look recently killed, observers there also said this. Bloating normally occurs 3 to 5 days after death, haven't seen much of that. Like I said, perhaps it's the cold preserving them.

You claimed they were killed by shellfire, I don't see significant evidence of that, on the contrary, observers say that many appear to have been shot (warning on the below images)

linkhttps://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1510354076642467840/photo/1

linkhttps://twitter.com/oldmelanholic/status/1511217828220870657/photo/2

linkhttps://twitter.com/ru_warcrimes/status/1511325285127532550/photo/1

I don't see shell or fragmentation damage there, several have their hands tied. Looks like they were shot.

You suggested that the Ukrainians "fabricated" this, you've backtracked on that. You claimed the area would be sanitized, you haven't backed that up and refuse to answer q's on it. You claimed that you will never trust investigations into this, but you suddenly trust a Western media outlet claiming satellite photos show bodies there 3 weeks ago. On any other day you'd be claiming those "satellite" photos were fake or doctored, but you randomly seemed to have hitched your wagon to it. Okay.

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883802#Comment_118883802

Get your facts straight.. This is a post from me on the 3th of April. What do i say!!!! Links here to new images never showed me this days ago.

My analysis was based on this video only.

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1510372750665433089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510372750665433089%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2058237179%2Fdid-the-usa-play-a-significantly-negative-role-in-events-leading-to-ukraine-invasion%2Fp22

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883871#Comment_118883871

Yeah you think these people are dead from shellfire. The observers, who were there, say that these bodies have signs of being shot.

For example:

"But three bodies seen by Reuters reporters on Sunday -- the corpse with the hands bound and two others which did not have bound hands -- bore bullet shots to the head consistent with what Bucha mayor Anatoliy Fedoruk and his deputy described as executions.

In all three cases, there were no signs of any other significant injuries elsewhere in the body. All three people shot in the head were male, and all three were dressed in civilian clothing.

On the body of the person whose hands were bound, there were powder burn marks on his lips and face. Such marks can mean a person was shot at close range.

The cloth used to bind the man's hands appeared to be a white armband. Russian troops, while they were in Bucha, required that local residents wear the armbands to identify themselves, according to one woman who was still wearing hers."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-street-corpse-with-hands-bound-bullet-wound-head-2022-04-03/

05-04-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883628#Comment_118883628

Your complete and utter lack of reading comprehensions skills is letting you down again. Re-read what I posted and see if you can understand it better this time around.

why are you focusing on that one small point, anyway? Does this mean you accept the rest of the post as factual? If not, why aren't you disputing it?

05-04-2022 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878124#Comment_118878124

The last line of this sentence:

Only one person on that street got his hands tied behind his back. Was he murdered in an earlier event? Was it staged, Nobody knows but you people are convinced have all the answers based on images provided by the government that's fighting Russia.

"Was it staged?"........i.e. did they use actors and fake the scenery/images

What was that about demanding apologies?

05-04-2022 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883871#Comment_118883871

When is the 3th of April? Is that after the 2st but before the 4nd?

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884261#Comment_118884261

Spend all this time looking at my posts and still have not found anything here that mentions actors or fake bodies,.What are you going to do now? What you believe I meant by “stage” is irrelevant and don't assume to know what another person’s thinking is.

Stage ie does not mean actors.

They can stage it in other ways using actual real bodies. More of a comment, an annoyance really, about how you guys are so certain about the event and the citizens on the streets had been shot days ago by Russian forces.

apologize please?

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884232#Comment_118884232

The shooting and Execution part just going to ignore that, post is days old?

05-04-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883545#Comment_118883545

"But a review of videos and satellite imagery by The Times shows that many of the civilians were killed more than three weeks ago, when Russia’s military was in control of the town."

On top of that, they reference bodies that showed up around the 21st so not all bodies are 3 weeks old. Do you agree that the Russians have lied about the bodies showing up after they left? The fact they're lying by default should raise red flags, if they died in normal war circumstances they wouldn't be choosing to push a conspiracy theory...

So nope, the NYT are not agreeing with you. You also conveniently ignored Bellingcat's documenting of it. There is absolutely no indication that Russia is being transparent on what transpired and all the indications are war crimes and mass executions. You're the kind of guy that would have downplayed kristallnacht back in the day. And you have downplayed the Holocaust. You cherry pick what suits.

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884661#Comment_118884661

Why are you getting annoyed with me about what the Russian government said?

I gave my own unique viewpoint., take it or leave buddy.

Am I supporting the Kremlin version here?????????????77

Done here, next debate.

05-04-2022 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884678#Comment_118884678

Weird, you ignored the fact that not all bodies were 3 weeks old. So the NYT very much so does not align with you. On top of that, you're ignoring the pretty detailed analysis of Bellingcat which you seem to only cite when suits... OSINT is incredibly useful around issues like this but instead you seem to really get your news from random Twitter accounts or trying to sound like an expert.

For a supposed critical thinker, you don't seem to have any questions of why they are lying about the bodies showing up after they left.

And yes you are downplaying and pushing a Kremlin line because you're depicting it as unruly soldiers at worst.

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884660#Comment_118884660

Yes I see it

Moving on, what do you think of Russian claims that all this is staged?

05-04-2022 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884635#Comment_118884635

You said "was it staged", the dictionary definition of which is the following:

staged

adjective

presented or performed on a stage......."this is not the first time that a staged musical has been broadcast live"
planned, organized, or arranged in advance (often of an event or situation intended to seem otherwise)......."they have suggested that the entire episode was a staged event"

You can try get bogged down in the semantics of whether or not you were talking about fake bodies, real bodies, whatever bodies you want. The fact remains, you were strongly hinting at the fact that this was pre-planned, using fake settings and fake people i.e. actors.

But I'll tell you what, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You respond comprehensively to my other posts and I'll apologise to you.

05-04-2022 5:36pm

Also that Russian language account that cheerful posted yesterday was claiming it was staged..

Also God, tagging users in mobile app is awful.

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2022 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884781#Comment_118884781

Reading back through the posts now, it appears Cheerful has dropped other notions, and seems to be (amazingly) holding the view that it's likely most of the were related to actions and atrocities carried out by Russian troops.

That said, not sure how long this moment of clarity will last before we descend back into false flags, Nazi's and Iraq, but will see ;)

Cheerful S · 05-04-2022 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884781#Comment_118884781

Shifty: periodically I will have time to compose longer post, but most of time be short replies as got only a few minutes to spare most days.

Busy in life doing other things that matter to me.. Recovering from covid ( better now) work will take me away from here very soon ( rejoice!!!). Other users don’t seem to have a life/or work ( no offense ) or girlfriends or partners they have day and night to post and argue with people.

Hey, thats it. Not ignorant and refusing to reply, have other priorities always come first.

05-04-2022 6:06pm

Translation: "I could answer them, but I'm afraid I've tied myself up in knots now and cannot do so without exposing the fact that I'm a liar, a fraud and haven't the first **** clue about international politics, so I won't"

Rinse and repeat.

Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

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