Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

Purple Mountain · 07-04-2022 9:22pm

I have heard of some people in my rural locality apply to house Ukrainian people in their family home.

While the sentiment is noble, I don't think Ukrainian living in the depths of rural Ireland is a runner.

Without access to transport or employment, I think the gestures aren't being thought through properly.

Who would pay for a car and its upkeep? What would the adults do all day while the Irish family is at work/school?

There are many vacant convents and monasteries and some seminaries lying vacant in towns. Many are just waiting to fall down.

I can think of one old convent with a massive school attached to it, just sitting there.

There could be a nationwide project and fundraiser to buy these over and convert them into apartments.

Most places have massive grounds for recreational use too.

Let's face it. This isn't a short term project, most of these people unfortunately will have no life to return to in Ukraine so countries taking them in need longer term plans.

Sleeper12 · 07-04-2022 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895751#Comment_118895751

HAP & rent allowance / supplement are both means tested. Obviously anyone who's only income is social welfare will meet the requirements. They will pass the means test hands down. The article is correct

07-04-2022 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894019#Comment_118894019

I really do have to laugh. Between us, you're the one coming across as condescending, and projecting statements as a teacher would. Remember how you quoted each point for both mine and others, and said "Wrong"? Or the little dance of yours saying that you're right, and I'm wrong. Or that your opinions are valid but mine (and others) aren't? Care to point out where I did anything similar to you?

You hold others to a standard that you're unwilling to meet yourself.

And you proved squat. You used articles that were unrelated, and deflected (again) when that was pointed out to you. Just as you're seeking to dismiss me again, rather than counter the points raised.

But grand.. I'm happy to leave it at that. It's obvious you don't like it when people disagree with you.

road_high · 07-04-2022 10:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895654#Comment_118895654

What’s your plan for whipping up tens of thousands of cheap 3 bed Semis in a few months so?

goldenmick · 07-04-2022 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896012#Comment_118896012

Get a life.

Everlong1 · 07-04-2022 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895465#Comment_118895465

I asked a similar question previously and am still waiting for someone to respond, apart from one numpty who ignored the point completely and started pretending we have no homeless crisis in Ireland.

TooTired123 · 07-04-2022 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895957#Comment_118895957

As I already said HAP is subject to the applicants being accepted by the local authority as in need of housing. The article conveniently leaves that out.

It takes months for social housing applications to be processed. But what do I know? I only deal with it everyday…

07-04-2022 10:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896111#Comment_118896111

Case in point.

Ha Long Bay · 07-04-2022 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896137#Comment_118896137

Maybe lay off the name calling? I was civil when I replied to you yesterday.

You said "we still have an unacceptable number of Irish citizens sleeping in doorways the length and breadth of the country."

I replied with real figures from a homeless charity stating that figure was 94 people in the Dublin region.

https://www.focusireland.ie/knowledge-hub/latest-figures/

How many Irish citizens sleeping in doorways do you think we have and what has this got to do with trying to help refugees fleeing Ukraine?

Purple Mountain · 07-04-2022 10:49pm

We also face the reality that our health system can't cope with the population we already have, never.mind an extra 30,000 people added into the system.

Anyone moving address in Ireland finds it difficult enough to get a new GP surgery with space to take them on.

I'd say GPs across the country must be wondering how the government are going to magic up enough resources for them to accommodate the extra influx.

These poor people will also need complex psychological supports. Again, where will this come from when we already have extensive waiting lists for our own population?

Sleeper12 · 07-04-2022 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896165#Comment_118896165

Couple of points. As far as HAP is concerned they meet the exact same criteria as Irish people on social welfare.

2nd point is that if they don't meet HAP requirements then they will will definitely meet rent allowance /supplement requirements. Rent supplement is there for the very reason of helping someone that doesn't meet HAP requirements

If it is deemed that they need long term help /housing then they will meet HAP requirements. If it is deemed that they don't need long term help/housing then they meet the requirements of rent supplement.

This isn't rocket science. The government is taking them into its care. Obviously they won't be able afford rent while on social welfare. The government knows this. Department of social welfare know this.

I just don't understand the argument that posters believe that they will be forced into homelessness because the government won't provide HAP and supplement. Its nonsensical. They are entitled to all welfare programs.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/the_asylum_process_in_ireland/coming_to_ireland_from_ukraine.html

Social welfare

When you arrive in Ireland you can apply to the Department of Social Protection for financial support. You will get a temporary social welfare payment called Supplementary Welfare Allowance. It is a weekly payment for you and any dependents (for example, children) you may have. If you need help applying for this payment, you can visit your nearest Ukraine Support Centre.

You will continue to get Supplementary Welfare Allowance until you apply for a more suitable social welfare payment. You can find out more about the range of social welfare payments available. You can apply for Rent Supplement if you find private rented accommodation.

If you have children, you can get Child Benefit. This is a monthly payment paid to the parents or guardians of children aged under 16. It is also paid for children aged 16 and 17 in full-time education. You do not have to have proof that your 16 and 17 year old children are in full-time education for the first 2 months after you arrive in Ireland.

Ukrainians who have come to Ireland because of the war satisfy the habitual residence condition for social welfare payments.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/d5554-supplementary-welfare-allowance/

Collection Supplementary Welfare Allowance (SWA) Scheme

From Department of Social Protection

Published on 17 September 2021

Last updated on 28 March 2022

Basic Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Rent Supplement

Exceptional Needs Payments

Urgent Needs Payments

SWA supplements

List of offices providing SWA services

The Supplementary Welfare Allowance scheme offers a safety net within the overall social welfare system by providing assents.

The main purpose of the scheme is to provide immediate and flexible assistance to those in need.

There are several payments within the scheme and more information is provided below.

Supplementary Welfare Allowance is administered by the Community Welfare Service of the department.

Basic Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Basic Supplementary Welfare Allowance is a weekly payment to people who do not have enough means to meet their needs and those of their qualified adult or any qualified children. It may be paid to people who are awaiting the outcome of a claim or an appeal for a primary social welfare payment or to those who do not qualify for payment under other State schemes.

Rent Supplement

Rent Supplement is a means-tested payment for certain people living in private rented accommodation who cannot provide for the cost of their accommodation from their own resources.

Exceptional Needs Payments

An Exceptional Needs Payments is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income.

Urgent Needs Payments

An Urgent Needs Payments is a once-off payment made to persons, including those who may not normally qualify for Supplementary Welfare Allowance, but who have an urgent need which they cannot meet from their own resources or an alternative is not available at that time.

istance to people in the State whose means are insufficient to meet their needs and those of their depend

Annasopra · 07-04-2022 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895699#Comment_118895699

I know what exactly what direct provision is. It was intended as a temporary measure over 20 years ago. People living in so called "emergency accomodation" - a form of direction provision often live there years. There was no plan for direct provision or "emergency accomodation" to be used as long term housing. Yetwe are about 25 years later.

It is absolutely naive to think that some Ukrainian people wont end up for some reason living in the same situation for a few years.

Sleeper12 · 07-04-2022 11:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896332#Comment_118896332

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/services_for_asylum_seekers_in_ireland/direct_provision.html

Direct provision system

Introduction

What is direct provision?

How direct provision works

Rules in direct provision

Complaints about direct provision

A new system to replace direct provision

Further information and contacts

Introduction

Direct provision is the name used to describe the accommodation, food, money and medical services you get while your international protection application is being processed or while you are an asylum seeker, which means the same thing.

You might get direct provision if you have applied for international protection and are waiting for:

Your first decision

The result of an appeal to the International Protection Appeals Tribunal

A judicial review (where the High Court looks at how a decision on your application was made)

A decision on whether you will be given leave to remain

A deportation

Your direct provision normally ends if the Department of Justice gives you permission to remain in Ireland, but sometimes you can stay in direct provision temporarily while you are looking for your own place to live.

What is direct provision?

When you apply for international protection, also called claiming asylum, the International Protection Office (IPO) must process your application. This sometimes takes a long time.

While you are waiting, you are entitled to direct provision. This means that you get:

Somewhere to live

Meals

A weekly payment of €38.80 per adult and €29.80 per child

A medical card

You do not have to accept direct provision. But you are not entitled to any other help from the State if you do not accept it.

Ukrainian refugees don't fit into any of the above. They have no international protection application to be processed. They get it on landing in Dublin. They get full welfare payments & not the "weekly payment of €38.80 per adult and €29.80 per child". That people in Direct Provision get. They couldn't gain access to a direct provision center even if they wanted to.

jo187 · 07-04-2022 11:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896165#Comment_118896165

Sorry mate off topic. Have you heard of HAP limit being increased? Was told a few months ago they were being looked into, wondering if you heard anything? Cheers

08-04-2022 12:08am

This thread has been very educational for me.

I was going to take in some Ukrainian refugees but now I know that these beautiful women will ruthlessly seduce me and my teenage son (my wife will not be happy but my teenage son will), they will infect us with hiv, their pets will bite us and give us rabies, then their crazy ptsd war veteran husbands will come over and murder us.

Thanks Boards for showing me the light.

08-04-2022 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893395#Comment_118893395

You are posting from the frontline, I assume?

Because I'd be really embarrassed for you, practically frothing at the mouth with this level of indignation, if you weren't.

Please have a bit of respect.

@goldenmick and several other warriors have been fighting this bitter war on the frontline since day one.

Over on the Russia thread.

Deeec · 08-04-2022 12:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896300#Comment_118896300

We have a housing crisis in this country and a scarcity of rental properties as it is, so where will the Ukrainians rent if they are approved for HAP?

08-04-2022 12:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896572#Comment_118896572

Same question can be asked in Paris, London, Berlin etc. even without the refugee crisis from Ukraine. Tell me how the left will fix it ?

TooTired123 · 08-04-2022 2:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896300#Comment_118896300

I don’t want to labour itty bitty points but in your last post you were quite certain they would be getting HAP (not a SW payment) and now it’s RS.

Of course they will be entitled to the full scope of SW benefits and allowances…eventually. But, in the meantime:

The Ukrainian refugees I met on Tuesday were sitting on the edges of civil defence camp beds in a draughty hall with a tin roof on the side of the road in north Tipp. It was being explained to them that no, we currently didn’t have hotel/B&B rooms available to them and yes, they would have to sleep here for a few nights. And I was embarrassed. Because I know that there simply isn’t any accommodation either LA or privately owned for them to rent, with or without Rent Supplement or HAP. And I don’t know why we invited them to come here when we don’t have the way of looking after them.

Sleeper12 · 08-04-2022 7:31am

They will be competing for rental property with Irish people. They have been granted full status here in Ireland. It might easier for you to see them as EU citizens. The rights they have been granted are closer to EU citizens than to what we would consider refugees.

They are homeless in the true sense of it or more so than most Irish people on the housing list. They have no family or friends to couch surf. They have no possessions except what is in a suitcase.

I need to make this very clear. Some of the houses & apartments that were pledged weren't pledged as free accommodation. They were pledged to accommodate these people but to still charge rent

Sleeper12 · 08-04-2022 7:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896672#Comment_118896672

They will be getting Rent allowance and HAP. HAP if it is deemed that they have long term accommodation needs & rent allowance if it is deemed to be short term needs.

I seem to have to repeat myself on this thread. They aren't being treated as refugees in the typical way. They have been granted access to all of the welfare and financial assistance services as Irish people

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/refugee_status_and_leave_to_remain/accommodation_for_refugees.html

From The Citizen information page for Ukraine refugees

The Housing Assistance Payment (HAP) is a form of social housing support for people who have a long-term housing need. To qualify you must be on the local authority’s housing list – which means that you qualify for social housing support. Under HAP you must find your own private rented accommodation - the local authority will not source it for you. The local authority makes the HAP payment to your landlord on your behalf. You pay a weekly HAP rent contribution to the local authority, based on your household’s weekly income and your ability to pay.

Annasopra · 08-04-2022 7:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896782#Comment_118896782

Rent allowance doesnt exist. Did you mean rent supplement?

Sleeper12 · 08-04-2022 7:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896797#Comment_118896797

Getting petty doesn't make you right. Rent supplement is more commonly known by the people who use it as rent allowance. Read my posts. In the vast majority I say rent supplement/ allowance

Call it what you will. They are entitled to it & HAP

Annasopra · 08-04-2022 7:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896808#Comment_118896808

Oh I could start providing links maybe?

TooTired123 · 08-04-2022 8:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896808#Comment_118896808

Are you trying to say that they will get rent supplement AND HAP? I don’t even know what this argument is about. In order to get either, an applicant needs to have secured private rented accommodation. And there just isn’t any. If you believe that there is I wish you would let the rest of us know where it is.

Instead of diverting refugees to other countries where they DO have accommodation, and only bringing refugees when we are properly ready for them, we are bringing old people and small children with nothing to offer them. Dreadful stuff.

JimmyVik · 08-04-2022 8:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896509#Comment_118896509

You should forget all the fluff and concern yourself with the more practical aspects. Most people will be fine and it will work out, but like any house share, a large portion will not work out, so you have to make sure that that is covered too. Its all well and good helping and is very noble, but make sure you are covered if you cant help anymore.

Take someone in if you feel like doing it yourself, but ask questions before you do.

Ask how long will it be for.

Is there an end date or will you have to "evict" the refugees you take in yourself if it is not working out for you.

Now it might work out, but if youve ever shared a house before you will know what can happen. These people will be strangers when they arrive first. So you may click with them or you may not over time.

Now there could be many reasons it might not work out. Personality clashes. Just not getting on with someone. Even down to someone being smelly or not washing the dishes, staying up late, getting up early, snoring etc. All very small things that could annoy you or maybe they wouldnt, , But the fact is IF you need an out, for whatever reason, make sure it is there. You dont wnat the guilt of having to kick someone out yourself. You should be able to contact whatever agency placed them there and they will move them immediately if you dont want them in your house anymore. And you dont want to hear that it will take 30 days or 60 days before they get someone out of your house that you dont enjoy living with. Usually if relations break down between housemates, someone needs to leave or live will just get more miserable while they are waiting to leave.

You might even really like them but decide that you need your space back in your house. Would you like a brother or sister of yours even living with you for 6 months, 1 years, 2 years :) I know i would get very tired of my brothers and sisters living in my house after 2 weeks even though I love them.

Then check if you will be getting payment and if this is definite or "Maybe". Because feeding, clothing and entertaining people in your house is expensive and only getting moire expensive.

Then check if you will be taxed on that. Will the agency do your accounts or will you have to pay an accountant to do it when it comes to tax time?

Thats just a few of the more down to earth things I can think of.

Just have everything in writing for all eventualities and guaranteed BEFORE you walk into it. Cover yourself in case anything goes wrong, so that the agency or govt is clear on what is expected of you and supplied by them.

Deeec · 08-04-2022 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896808#Comment_118896808

They will be entitled to it but there are no properties for them to rent - all that may be available are rooms in homes and thats a big maybe.

Lots of issues need to be dealt with:

-like what standard do the properties need to meet ( is it current standards which may rule out alot of houses)
-if you take in someone seeking refuge is the income you receive taxable
Insurance - do householders have to cover insurance themselves

Its hard enough for anyone to find a rental property currently. The arrival of the Ukranians will only add to our housing crisis surely you see that. The fact that the ukranians can claim housing supports means absolutely nothing because there is nowhere for them to go.

Government need to come up with a solution fast or there will be huge issues down the line.

Sleeper12 · 08-04-2022 8:32am

This is my last post on HAP. I have repeatedly posted links explaining that ukraines can claim HAP & rent allowance/supplement. Posters refuse to read them & foolishly repeat no HAP for them. It's pointless me spamming the thread with the same links if posters wont even take the time to read them. I have already explained that they are not seeking asylum. They will not be put in direct provision. They wouldn't be allowed go into direct provision. They are entitled to all of our welfare system. Everything you & I are entitled to, they can get the same. For short term housing needs they can apply for rent allowance. For long term needs they can apply for HAP. If refused HAP then then are entitled to rent allowance.

There is a site called citizeninformation.ie

About Citizens Information

The citizensinformation.ie website provides comprehensive information on public services and on the entitlements of citizens in Ireland. We gather information from various government departments and agencies, and make sure that you have all the information you need, presented in an easy-to-understand way.

The site has been specially designed around the needs of users for those times in life when you need information about your rights and how to apply for State services in Ireland.

Citizensinformation.ie was developed, and is maintained by the Citizens Information Board. Citizensinformation.ie website is an Irish eGovernment initiative, and was originally established under the Government's first action plan for the Information Society.

The Citizens Information Board is the statutory body which supports the provision of information, advice and advocacy on a broad range of public and social services. It provides the Citizens Information website, citizensinformation.ie, and supports the network of Citizens Information Centres and the Citizens Information Phone Service 0818 07 4000 to provide free, confidential, independent and impartial information to all.

The Citizens Information Board produces a number of publications about your rights and entitlements.

Citizen information has a page dedicated to Ukraine refugees. The reason they have a page dedicated to Ukraine is because they have totally different rights compared to regular refugees. The day the land they can take up full or part time work. They can enroll their children in regular local schools. They have access to the entire welfare system. Refugees can read this webpage from somewhere like Poland before they decide on Ireland. If people would just read it instead of saying "I am right & you are wrong" we could make this thread a lot smaller. Please read it. HAP & rent supplement are both covered. Below is the link.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/refugee_status_and_leave_to_remain/accommodation_for_refugees.html

08-04-2022 8:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896830#Comment_118896830

Good luck with getting answers to all of that.

The reality is:

Many of these refugees have nothing- their entire cities towns and villages no longer exist
The war is still going and will do, possibly into 2023 at least
It will take a decade or more to rebuild and rehouse the displaced citizens
If you take their rent allowance what will they live on? I’m not saying you should or you shouldn’t take their rent allowance but they will have little or nothing to live on if you do
While many women will be capable of work, those with children will have difficulty- who will mind the kids?
It’s going to cost families to house all of these people- most hosts will be able to afford this short-term- and out of the goodness of their hearts- but it will be significant cost medium term - and not all can afford that.

While this thread currently looks like a sh1t show, I reckon it will take off in a few months time when the stories start on the Joe Duffy show - we’re not set up to take in 150k+ people into this country right now for the medium term.

Peoples good will and acts of kindness will not be limitless in most cases- not because they’re mean - no not at all and far from it- it’s simply because either they can no longer cope for whatever reason or they just can’t afford it

Sleeper12 · 08-04-2022 8:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896877#Comment_118896877

You might be totally correct in that there wont be many places to rent but fair play to you to agree that they are entitled to HAP

Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

Comments