Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

Augme · 08-04-2022 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897448#Comment_118897448

Stakeholders meeting Ministers, trips to the Oireachtas are nearly always planned well in advance of them happening though.

The only time I've ever experienced meetings organised last minute have been with internal people attending and never external. Pre covid that was grand because it made no difference but how some people haven't copper onto the fact doing it on a hybrid model is extremely annoying is beyond baffling.

HartsHat · 08-04-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897682#Comment_118897682

I've seen both with less than a week's notice.

Either way, you'll still need childcare five days a week.

Most if not all internal meetings can be done online so don't see the issue with them.

CivilServantCP · 08-04-2022 12:06pm

Where are the local civil service hubs as an alternative to HQ attendance? The banks have gone down this route. No need to be just going in and out of Dublin or working from home. Forsa have been a mess. CS' should have a half way house where they can report to a sister department location or a Cs secure hub so many days a week and maybe go to HQ once a month or as needed. No imagination or sign of a successful push back from the union that we all pay into. I'm already seeing good hard workers forced out because they have understandably relocated in the last 2 years and are now being asking to come back to Dublin weekly. Huge failing from Forsa.

Like I said ideally local arrangements are best but outside of that I'd expect flexibility as above after having 2 years to prep for this.

willthiswork · 08-04-2022 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897892#Comment_118897892

I feel that this sort of work doesn't impact the vast majority of the civil service! Most civil servants are not involved in stakeholder or Ministerial meetings to be fair!

Gusser09 · 08-04-2022 12:36pm

2 days a week for me which isnt being enforced currently to be fair. The longer that goes on the better it looks for a 50/50 pattern. 2 days a week follwed by 3 days etc.

Addle · 08-04-2022 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898072#Comment_118898072

And participants have been encouraged to consider alternatives to traveling to meetings for a long time. Video conferencing wasn’t invented during the pandemic.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-04-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897448#Comment_118897448

Serious jobs? 🙄

Hotblack Desiato · 08-04-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897958#Comment_118897958

This is the same bunch of clowns who thought a 1% pay rise was a great deal.

Augme · 08-04-2022 1:59pm

Fórsa are truly awful. It's an organisation that has taken the worst parts of the civil service structure and implemented as their business model. People getting jobs in important positions not based on their ability to do the job but on their ability to brown nose.

Their press release for the blended framework policy was an embarrassment. Talking about how they achieved everything they wanted to, they achieved nothing. No progress in flexitime, no mention of financial support wfh, as mentioned no work done on hubs, no mention on the core hours or exploring a truly flexible working pattern that would allow COs to HEOs, no mention about removing the need for those grades to clock if they aren't working flexi etc.

It's a shambles of an organisation. I dread to think of the cluster **** they will make of the new pay agreement.

hardybuck · 08-04-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897958#Comment_118897958

I'd say fairly limited appetite for this, and even less will to make it happen.

People were talking about this for years before COVID, but I don't think anyone has the gumption to make it happen.

Sammy96 · 08-04-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898489#Comment_118898489

Probably because the main decision holders all live in Dublin and have no interest in it.

TaurenDruid · 08-04-2022 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897448#Comment_118897448

The illusion that most civil service staff have, on any given day (with little or no notice!) regular external conferences, stakeholders coming to meet the Minister in person that they need to be there for, are representing the Dept in front of an Oireachtas Committee, are in the Dáil "on legislation" (what does that even mean?), or are travelling to a meeting in Brussels, etc., is frankly one that can go die in a fire.

In even the smallest department, like, e.g., the one they invented for Simon Harris, that's still only going to be 10-15% of the staff. And they tend to be the more senior staff. Meaning older. Meaning their kids are at least in secondary school, if not college, and don't need to be picked up from childminders.

There is no reason that standard rotas can't be worked out in the vast majority of workplaces. Yes, absolutely, at times there will be exceptions, and emergencies, and urgent stuff that comes up unexpectedly, and they can be dealt with as needed, but in the normal course of events, it's simply not realistic to dismiss the ability of staff to organise suitable childcare and be able to do their jobs, when they've demonstrably be doing just that for over two years now.

Sammy96 · 08-04-2022 4:58pm

Its amazing how we have gone from "ye are all doing brilliant working from home for two years" to "we need you in the office 3 days a week".

As expected a hard line is being rolled out but a natural adjustment will come. Surely the housing and inflation situation will have an impact on how many civil servants will want to live and rent in Dublin for 2 days a week in the office.

As said, the private sector is moving on this and the clever ones are jumping on the opportunity to get staff that they need by offering flexibility.

hardybuck · 08-04-2022 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899361#Comment_118899361

I've heard that some Departments are having to concede that initial 3 day stance already.

Bellie1 · 08-04-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899404#Comment_118899404

As in they're reversing the 3 days and allowing staff come in less?

Chaos Black · 08-04-2022 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899302#Comment_118899302

Depends on the Department, for the Central One's HEO's and AO's will also take part in a lot of that kind of work regularly. For most staff outside of these though agreed it is not common.

Any update on building up flexitime and using it again? I am back to the office approx 80% of the week. I regularly due to business requirements build up a lot of overtime. It was fine for the heights of the pandemic considering the situation, but now I want it back as my pay does not not take into account regular overtime and I don't get it back in lieu.

Augme · 08-04-2022 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899670#Comment_118899670

It's only available for staff who work five days. No word on anything beyond that really. No mention of it in the blended framework policy at all. Fórsa want staff to be able to accure flexi at home but DPer don't. DPER did propose a pilot project (don't k ow the details) but this was rejected by forsa as it "would have resulted in inconsistencies in the approach of different departments" whatever that means.

Given how long it took so long to develop the blended policy I was amazed it was mention in that. Does bode well for having the issue resolved any time soon either.

billyhead · 08-04-2022 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898470#Comment_118898470

Is it true Flexi leave is abandoned unless you go back to the office full-time? If so Forsa should be fighting against this. Sorry I'm just seeing the above post.

08-04-2022 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896939#Comment_118896939

No one is going to pay full fees to have a childminder or creche on call full time, on the off chance that they may be called to attend the office outside of their expected days. Whereas you might be able to call ona friend or family member to collect the kids from school, professional childcare providers don't work that way - they have ratios of minders to children to maintain on any given day.

People need to be able to put some kind of routine in place around their lives. That does not mean they are inflexible, it just means they need adequate notice of any changes. Changing around the days required each week, and not setting them until a week before, is simply not on. Its too messy.

As an aside, not all children need constant "eyes on" 9am to 5pm childcare. By the time they are 7/8 years old they can be at home after school once there is an adult in the house.

if they did ask about adequate childcare arrangements when considering an application for WFH, they could potentially be opening themselves up to claims of discrimination on grounds of family status, if the application is denied.

Icbaby · 08-04-2022 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900050#Comment_118900050

I am one of those people with the childcare, I could collect her from school and drop her to my parents for the 2.5 hrs and save myself over €500 a month but we’ve yet to be told anything about days (which is why I’ve asked a few people ina few depts and got the ‘plan as if your in the office’). If I was working from home I could use my lunch to collect and drop off but if I’m in the office id need a crèche to collect for after school. I’d happily do 2 days in, 3 days out as I’d be able to get someone to collect her 2 days. It’s all so up in the air and the crèche are asking about her place in September and I’ve no answer to give. Hopefully it’ll all come together for everyone. I do believe talking to HEO/APs that a lot of the policies will be standard and then each department can adjust to suit their needs as their higher ups see fit. And I agree there, like someone said, if your customer facing you may have to be in but if your data entry and never speak to customer you may be in less days.

08-04-2022 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897958#Comment_118897958

That will be part of the longer term plan.

Forsa have been a mess

Apparently despite what is in DPER's guidelines and in Forsa's bulletin, how flexitime / flexi leave is to be handled has not been agreed upon.

Sammy96 · 08-04-2022 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900185#Comment_118900185

Really feel your frustration. Its disgraceful really that you cannot potentially keep your flexibility.

Perhaps the reason to start looking around at changing jobs?

I also would, if it was me start putting your foot down. Take the initiative and say what you want. I firmly believe now is the time for staff to speak up in the civil service.

08-04-2022 9:09pm

FORSA making a song and dance about flexitime and allowances for staff WFH when absolutely everyone I've spoken to thinks it should be the opposite.

They are 100% playing dumb on this because of a luddite fear of change themselves, they are an appalling bunch of political theory hobbyists utterly removed from and utterly useless to the needs of their average member.

08-04-2022 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900185#Comment_118900185

I think that's very unfair on you. You should be able to have some structure, so you can plan your childcare requirements around your WFO days. Every application to WFH has to be taken as its own case, so in your position (I've no children that need childcare any more) I would be looking for set days, with the understanding of course that you will arrange something if you do need to come in outside of that.

DPER expects depts to have their own policies in place by end of Q2, though I think it will be closer to end of Q3, myself.

Bellie1 · 08-04-2022 9:28pm

It seems crazy they're not getting feedback from members on an issue so critical. Alot will leave union after this if they've any sense. This is as critical as pay increase for alot of staff

CivilServantCP · 08-04-2022 10:03pm

100% I've contacted the union so much on this and they just talk you in circles and seem to say "you're lucky they're giving you any WFH, imagine this before the pandemic" . Well we are where we are and we shouldn't have to go back for the sake of pleasing the whims of Senior Management and DPER. The reality is now if the job is done that's all that matters. No need for Dublin presentism fueling the housing crisis, Climate crisis and work life balance commuting hell.

2 years they had to keep the gains of remote working and it looks like they are not to the task here.

TaurenDruid · 09-04-2022 8:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900533#Comment_118900533

Fórsa actually seems to be very weak/poorly organised in a lot of the civil service (as opposed to the public service), compared to the "old days" of the CPSU and PSEU. I'm aware of a couple of departments where essentially the "branch committee" is a small handful of people who've been doing it for years, have things sown up so nobody else will stand, and who do nothing apart from distribute the magazine. Until it became an online one, when even that stopped.

09-04-2022 10:21am

I have to be honest, when I discovered that flexitime issues are still not agreed, I got annoyed and after 32 years of union membership - I am wondering what I am paying them 1% of my income for. Only for the Income Continuance Plan, (pre-95 and single, so a must for me) I'd seriously consider cancelling my own membership, at this stage. Never thought I'd say that.

Over the last 2 years I cannot recall a single time the Union has contacted or polled its members on what they wanted in a blended working policy.

EarWig · 09-04-2022 6:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118901878#Comment_118901878

One of the good things that has come out of Covid is union meetings taking place on Zoom. I wouldn't have dreamt of going to them before as the union was run by a clique of enthusiasts. On Zoom I just listen in.

I don't think people realise just how many cases unions do actually involve themselves in. They have very little big power because they can't rely on members willingness to fight and the general culture has been so anti union for so long. So, they focus on small issues where they have a good chance of success if they are dogged enough.

Twice in 25 years I've gone to the union about issues with managers. In both cases, the union was straight forward to deal with and very helpful in one of the cases.

TaurenDruid · 09-04-2022 8:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903945#Comment_118903945

I'm glad you had a decent experience. My own, not so much. Always have been a union member, though, so likely will stay on as one, but yeah, pretty much for the income continuance at this stage...

Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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