What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

One eyed Jack · 11-04-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909991#Comment_118909991

I didn’t say economic prosperity and growth comes from the lowest economic sectors, I said a plentiful supply of labour reduces employers costs of doing business, thereby contributing to economic prosperity and growth.

Contributing factors to GDP are a different matter entirely, but regardless of that fact, there actually aren’t a lot of immigrants working in fintech industries on top-tier salaries. The vast majority of immigrants are, as I suggested overwhelming employed in the lowest economic sectors in any society. Even if you want to use Ireland as an example -

Workers by industry

While the 293,830 non-Irish national workers in 2016 could be found in all of the main industries, certain sectors dominated. The wholesale and retail trades accounted for 45,812 persons while accommodation and food services employed 40,859 persons. There were 36,387 at work in manufacturing while 21,779 were working in the health sector. The top 10 nationalities accounted for more than 70 per cent of all non-Irish national workers in these sectors in 2016. Polish, UK national, Lithuanian and Latvian workers accounted for two-thirds (67.1%) of all non-Irish in the wholesale and retail sector. UK, Poland and Indian nationals accounted for more than half (50.3%) of all non-Irish workers in the health sector.

The figures below show the top non-Irish nationalities involved in these four industrial sections. The main non-Irish groups such as Polish, UK and Lithuanian nationals dominate these figures.

Socio-economic group

Socio-economic group (SEG) classifies the entire population into one of ten groups based on the level of skill and educational attainment of the occupation (of those at work, unemployed or retired) while all other persons are classified to the socio-economic group of the person in the family on whom they are deemed to be dependent.

Non-manual workers (group D) accounted for the largest group of non-Irish nationals with 115,554 persons and representing 21.6 per cent of all non-Irish nationals. The smallest group was group I (farmers) representing just 0.6 per cent.

Figure 5.6 compares the distribution of Irish and non-Irish nationalities by socio-economic group. Proportionately more Irish nationals were assigned to the first three SEG categories - employers, managers, higher and lower professional groups (37.3% combined) - than were non-Irish nationals (27%). Relatively more non-Irish were assigned to non-manual, manual skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers (46.9% combined) compared with Irish nationals (39.2%).

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp7md/p7md/p7sea/

Cordell · 11-04-2022 11:09am

I didn’t say economic prosperity and growth comes from the lowest economic sectors, I said a plentiful supply of labour reduces employers costs of doing business, thereby contributing to economic prosperity and growth.

How can you have economic prosperity and growth from more minimum wage jobs? You can't. I think this was seen both here in Ireland and in my own country in the EE, the FDI was what bought economic prosperity and growth and they don't really rely on this kind of very cheap labor.

Contributing factors to GDP are a different matter entirely, but regardless of that fact, there actually aren’t a lot of immigrants working in fintech industries on top-tier salaries. The vast majority of immigrants are, as I suggested overwhelming employed in the lowest economic sectors in any society. Even if you want to use Ireland as an example -

When I said there's a lot of immigrants I didn't mean as a sizeable portion of the immigrant population, I only said that they are the ones that can be credited to contribute to the economic prosperity and growth. The others came here after Ireland became a prosperous and (relatively) rich country, not before. Just like that "Polish plumber" in the UK, they came there as a result of existing economic prosperity, they weren't the ones causing it.

Wibbs · 11-04-2022 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910002#Comment_118910002

"Asian" is a parrticularly British term encompassing Indians, Pakistanis etc. Pretty much everywhere else it refers to Chinese, Japanese etc. I didn't realise the Irish government were copying the British in this.

Oh and links or GTFO as we used to say on the interwebs when opinion was backed up by more facts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910031#Comment_118910031

Again links please.

Let me show you how. In 2017 when there were apparently over 300,000 Irish people(though some sources claim double that) in the UK there were 770 Irish in prison. (PDF) As for breakdowns along ethnicity,(PDF)

The Scotland Census 2011 suggests that the proportion of prisoners classified as being from a white ethnicity is the same proportion found among the general population. The proportion of people from Asian or Black ethnicities within the general population differed from the rate of the prison population. 2.5% of the general population was from an Asian ethnicity, whereas 1.7% of the prison population were reported as Asian. People from black ethnicities accounted for 0.6% of the general population and 1.4% of the prison population

11-04-2022 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909670#Comment_118909670

Who are the rich in Europe? They're people who have built up wealth through the generations. It's no different elsewhere. The problem for other continents is that stability isn't as common as it is in Europe. Corruption, war, seizure of assets by governments, etc all give solid reasons for the rich in other counties to leave.. unless they're the ones pulling the strings, but even then, that's an unreliable position.

But even if we move away from the rich and look at the upper middle class (in terms of economics), the same thing bears out. Wealth is accumulated over the generations with a few ups and downs, but generally, a continuous slight upward movement. The same situation exists for the lower classes or lower economic groups but the upwards rise is far less due to environmental conditions.

When migrants move to another country, typically, they're putting that upward movement on hold. Most of those who move to Europe don't have any generational wealth to form a foundation for their development. (their own savings tend to take a severe drop on value in being translated into Euros) The skilled/educated can get well-paying jobs which helps to make up the difference, but that's not true for the lower groups. Social welfare is never going to be enough in a western nation. Working minimum wage is never going to be enough. Even the lower end of the "Average" jobs is slowly becoming not enough, as costs of living or inflation rises.

Show me any society where the most economically disadvantaged do not make up the largest proportion of those in prison.

And why is that? You don't seem to want to look at the reasons as to why it happens. Oh, and you can go all the way back to Ur to find the same reasons.

If we take away all the non white people will crime suddenly disappear from ireland?

Why the extreme? It does nothing to take away from the points you're objecting to.

Madeleine Birchfield · 11-04-2022 11:30am

It doesn't matter if the immigrants are plastic paddies from America or Igbo from Nigeria. In general, we should be trying to limit immigration into our country as much as possible because high levels of immigration are known to suppress wage growth for the working class regardless if they are immigrant or native-born. The only people who actually benefit from high levels of immigration are the multinational corporations who want cheap labour so they could make more profit for themselves. Whatever cultural effects of having less immigration into Ireland, such as better chances of integrating existing immigrants into Irish society, are downstream from the economic reasons.

Fandymo · 11-04-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910238#Comment_118910238

https://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/not-enough-migrants-arriving-to-keep-pay-down-central-bank-38356212.html

One eyed Jack · 11-04-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910122#Comment_118910122

Competitiveness of an economy is the greatest contributing factor to GDP - it’s not that economic prosperity and growth comes from more minimum wage jobs, it comes from competitiveness as a cost of doing business. Ireland are competing with other countries such as those in EE for FDI on the basis of our competitiveness. We’re competing on that same basis with other countries to attract skilled immigrants, AND we also need unskilled and semi-skilled labour to fill the labour requirements in industries which are dependent upon unskilled and semi-skilled labour.

Crediting individuals with a country’s economic prosperity and growth just doesn’t work like you’re trying to make out. All these systems are interconnected - they make up the parts of a functional economy. I dunno what country in EE you’re from, so I have nothing to compare it to, but you wouldn’t be the first person to allude to the fact that our economy is overly dependent upon a small number of foreign employers and the risks to our economic growth and prosperity of doing so -

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-30836707.html

RYEL · 11-04-2022 11:54am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom

India 467,634 776,603

Pakistan 321,167 540,495

Ireland 537,108 503,288

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8161/CBP-8161.pdf

NationalityNumber% of all FN

Polish 890 19%

Irish 770 8%

Albanian 726 7%

Romanian 638 6%

Jamaican 527 5%

Pakistani 426 4%

Lithuanian 424 4%

Indian 345 3%

Somalian 339 3%

Nigerian 285 3%

India 345 divided by 776,603 0.0444%

Pakistan 426 divided by 540,495 0.0788%

Irish 770 divided by 503,288 0.1530%

Wikipedia for UK population by nationality

Wibbs link for UK prison population by nationality

Irish prisoners as a percentage of population are double Pakistanis and over treble the same value for Indians. Irish people are over represented in comparison to people from India or Pakistan in the UK prison population.

Cordell · 11-04-2022 11:57am

I'm not alluding that Irish economy is highly dependent on FDIs, I'm saying it outright. And there's nothing wrong with it either, Ireland benefited greatly from these FDIs and it in Ireland's best interest to continue to do so.

However, these FDIs were not attracted by the cheap labour, mostly because the cheap labour is not cheap at all here in Ireland, so they will go to other places for that.

One eyed Jack · 11-04-2022 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910400#Comment_118910400

There’s a lot wrong with it when it affects how competitive we are as an economy compared to other economies, and we’re simply unable to compete as the cost of doing business here is far greater than the cost of doing business in other countries. Ireland hasn’t benefited greatly from these FDIs - we’re dependent upon them, that’s the difference.

The only reason they’re here at all isn’t for the highly-educated workforce they’re always banging on about, it’s because they pay feckall in corporation tax, or at least they did, until the EU said enough of that now, further reducing Ireland’s competitive advantage -

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/23/will-irelands-corporation-tax-rise-see-tech-companies-leave-dublin

Before then even a small number of people benefited greatly from what was known as Ireland’s facilitation as a tax haven for FDI. It’s what led to what became known as the “Double Dutch”, and the Leprechaun economics that resulted from it when Ireland were told they had to fix it -

The event marked the replacement of Ireland's prohibited BEPS tool, the Double Irish, with the more powerful Capital Allowances for Intangible Assets (CAIA) tool. Apple used the CAIA tool to restructure out of its hybrid–Double Irish tool, on which the EU Commission would levy a €13 billion fine in August 2016. As a result of the action by Apple, a range of academics calculated that Ireland, already held by some to be a major tax haven, was the world's largest tax haven.

The "Leprechaun economics" incident had follow-on effects. In September 2016, Ireland became the first of the major tax havens to be "blacklisted" by a G20 economy, Brazil. In February 2017, Ireland replaced GDP with "Modified GNI (or GNI*)" (2017 Irish GDP was 162% of 2017 Irish GNI*, whereas EU–28 2017 GDP was 100% of GNI). In December 2017, the U.S and the EU introduced countermeasures to the Irish BEPS tools. In October 2018, Ireland introduced a reverse tax, to discourage IP from leaving Ireland. In 2018, the OECD showed that Ireland's public debt metrics differ dramatically depending on whether Debt-to-GDP, Debt-to-GNI* or Debt-per-Capita is used; and in 2019, the IMF estimated 60 per cent of Irish foreign direct investment was "phantom".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprechaun_economics

Cordell · 11-04-2022 12:29pm

The only reason they’re here at all isn’t for the highly-educated workforce they’re always banging on about, it’s because they pay feckall in corporation tax

You can have an office of 5 employees "managing" 2000 in India and run all moneys through and pay fekall indeed, and this surely do happen. But in the same time there's Apple and Google and Facebook and Intel are employing thousands each, and this is not because of any tax. Furthermore, corporations also actively bring highly skilled immigrants here instead of just sizing up the shop there.

So yes the highly-educated workforce is real and also a real reason.

RYEL · 11-04-2022 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910130#Comment_118910130

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

https://www.irishprisons.ie/wp-content/uploads/documents_pdf/NATIONALITY-GROUP-by-Year-2007-to-Year-2020.pdf

Population # in Ireland % of pop %Prison Pop

Ireland Pop 4,689,921

EU Citizen 291,271 6.21% 12.1%

UK Citizen 122,515 2.20% 1.8%

As a percentage of population EU citizens are over represented in comparison to citizens of the United Kingdom in the Irish Prison population.

Wibbs · 11-04-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910383#Comment_118910383

Foreign born. Within the UK born demographics of the UK Asians make up about the same percentage in prison compared to the population(around 7%), Black british make up 3.15% of the population but 13% of their prison population.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910649#Comment_118910649

And your point being?

RYEL · 11-04-2022 12:58pm

You asked me to provide links of my claims I did. That is why.

"Oh and links or GTFO as we used to say on the interwebs when opinion was backed up by more facts." wibbs

"Again links please" wibbs

DaTown · 11-04-2022 1:15pm

Would the Irish number include members of the Traveling community?

RYEL · 11-04-2022 1:25pm

Looking at the stats for both ireland and the uk it is the europeans for ireland and Polish for the UK we should fear the most.

Is it time to call for irexit to quell this eu multiculturalism madness.

Expand the CTA do away with Europe bring in more of those United Kingdom Citizens to Ireland to fill our low paid workers shortage.

RYEL · 11-04-2022 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910805#Comment_118910805

Are they ethnically Irish?

One eyed Jack · 11-04-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910576#Comment_118910576

Their presence here has everything to do with our low rates of corporation tax, with many of these foreign employers being able to avoid even paying anything close to 12.5%, and paying closer to 2.5%. You might argue that 2.5% is better than nothing, but it’s not, not when it comes at the cost of becoming dependent upon FDI for our economic growth.

As for the number of employees in Apple, Google, Microsoft etc, even taking the IT sector as a whole, that’s about 80,000 top tech professionals, out of a total labour force of 2.5 million. Most of those top tech professionals are working in support roles as opposed to development or engineering roles. They’re not all earning €100k+ like the small number of employees in Google or Microsoft, and even then, as I’ve demonstrated already with figures from the CSO, the foreign workers who we’re both agreed that large corporations are trying to attract to Ireland, only make up a small number of those in professional positions. The vast majority of foreign workers in fintech are employed in support roles.

These companies don’t need the Irish highly educated work force. It’s far more competitive for them to seek highly-skilled talent from outside Ireland, while maintaining the advantages of being positioned within the EU, AND paying as little as they do in taxes.

The knock-on effect of that of course is that it means that people are forced to locate further and further outside the commuter belt because it’s just not possible to purchase property in Dublin for any reasonable sort of money, and the people who already own property in Dublin don’t want the value of their properties to go down again, so they have little sympathy for anyone who is either unable to buy, or is paying through the nose for rent.

It’s easier to afford to live down the country, but the infrastructure (or lack thereof), is a bit shyte, due to just what were atrocious decisions in urban and rural development planning decades before the current shower took over the running of the country into the ground.

Wibbs · 11-04-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910729#Comment_118910729

For all this back and forth deflection and Irexit ballsology* my original post that you took issue with remains true.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909738#Comment_118909738

The same trends are seen across all Western multicultural nations. And those trends have been and remain: Compared to background those of African heritage are more likely to be poorer, less educated, unemployed and negatively involved in the justice system(in the UK on the latter point 4% population, 13% in gaol). Groups like Roma and our own Travellers similarly. East Asians are less likely to be poor, under educated and unemployed and trend higher on the positives than the native populations. South Asians vary depending on heritage, Indians do better than Pakistanis.

Please show me a European multicultural nation where these trends don't follow. Actually if you like extend that to all the multicultural Western nations. You'll be looking for a long time.

*I'd be about the very last person that would come close to supporting that nonsense and think the English and Welsh shot themselves in the face.

RYEL · 11-04-2022 2:04pm

Any chance you could link to the data wibbs

Wibbs · 11-04-2022 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118911105#Comment_118911105

You're so transparent you'd pass good muster as a windowpane. I made the point, prove me wrong. Show me one EU nation where those of African heritage score the same or higher on education, economic markers, employment, social welfare and prison population as the native population. It should be easy peasy.

RYEL · 11-04-2022 2:16pm

What happened to

"Oh and links or GTFO as we used to say on the interwebs when opinion was backed up by more facts." wibbs

Even the site where your are sourcing high level figure from.

You don't have to do the actual work like I did but at least link to something supporting your figures.

Potatoeman · 11-04-2022 2:41pm

https://extra.ie/2022/04/11/news/taoiseach-admits-number-of-people-offering-rooms-not-as-large-as-originally-anticipated

Number offering rooms not as large as anticipated.

I think there are people offering not really prepared either. Living with people isn’t always straightforward. Also the cost involved with higher energy and soon food costs mixed with uncertainty of what the government will actually pay. I couldn’t believe the 300 a month for a holiday home.

Cordell · 11-04-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910963#Comment_118910963

As for the number of employees in Apple, Google, Microsoft etc, even taking the IT sector as a whole, that’s about 80,000 top tech professionals, out of a total labour force of 2.5 million. Most of those top tech professionals are working in support roles as opposed to development or engineering roles

You made me chuckle :) Yes, some of them will be in support roles, but it's not the typical call centre support, it's the other kind, the one that pays 100k+.

One eyed Jack · 11-04-2022 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118911433#Comment_118911433

No, most will be in support roles, as opposed to development or engineering roles. That’s why I specifically made the point. I didn’t say anything about the typical call centre support, which is not the same and wouldn’t be on the same salary. Support roles in fintech generally go from €30 entry level to €45k at the top tier.

€100k+ would be the exception rather than the norm.

TomTomTim · 11-04-2022 4:39pm

LEGALLY IRISH: Anyone with Irish citizenship

ETHNICALLY IRISH: Anyone who was born to Irish parents, and when I say Irish, I mean people who's blood has come from this soil and has came from this soil for hundreds of years

MIXED IRISH: People with one Irish parent, and one non Irish parent

I don't use this site much anymore, but this stupid debate has been going on for over ten pages, so I couldn't help myself. As usual, this thread is full of open borders supporters, who have to spend their days pretending that they can't understand basic definitional stuff, all in the name of pretending that their worldviews are sound, when they are really riddled with holes, holes that will eventually cause a lot of damage to this nation.

Also, I remember a ban on posting negative stories about immigrants committing crime? Yet a certain poster is allowed to spam this thread with pro immigrant stories?

11-04-2022 4:50pm

If anyone is around St Patrick's Cathedral on Good Friday this might be worth checking out

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2022/0411/1291627-olga-chubareva/

A star in her own country, Olga is known as 'Lady Opera' and was named 'People's Artist of Ukraine', but when war broke out Olga, who has a home in Bucha, had to leave and is now staying with a family in Ireland.

Her hosts here heard about a concert by the St Patrick's Cathedral Choir in Dublin planned as a fundraiser for the Irish Red Cross and contacted the cathedral to tell them that Olga would like to be involved.

On Good Friday, she will sing a number of pieces with the choir including a Prayer for Ukraine, Myroslav Skoryk's Melody and Andrew Lloyd Webber’s Requiem Pie Jesu.

Fandymo · 11-04-2022 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912003#Comment_118912003

Thats Boards nowadays, the rules apply differently depending on your opinion and if the power that be agrees with you.

Potatoeman · 11-04-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912090#Comment_118912090

Don’t forget the mysterious deleted threads.

11-04-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912003#Comment_118912003

Glad to see at least someone knows basic definitions.

You could also inform posters of the definition of migrant, asylum seeker, refugee and the rules around Irish citizenship, because it seems very few posters have any idea what they are talking about.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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