Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

09-04-2022 8:17pm

I stay a member because i believe that strong membership figures empower them in collective partnership negotiations

their involvement in every little individual complaint is, to me, a negative. its like TDs filling out forms for people. they have a far more important job and their involvement in individual cases is almost always for show as policy will dictate outcomes more often than not anyway

Augme · 09-04-2022 10:04pm

Like above, I dislike the fact that the union get involved in individual cases. One of the biggest problems with the union is that a large number of the members are simply a nuisance in the workplace. They then join the union because it offers them protection.

Those same members become important in the union but because they are mostly incompetent they then provide absolutely zero value to public service employees. There's a reason most civil servants aren't in the union and view them negatively.

caviardreams · 10-04-2022 8:16am

Completely agree - it results in a culture of individual employees running to the union and creating massive conflicts over tiny things that could be sorted out with an informal, non-confrontational "could we have a chat about x" approach with line management. It makes things escalate far more than needed and soaks up so much time and energy.

Forsa should be focussing on bigger fish and influencing policies that impact members on a wider scale

griffdaddy · 10-04-2022 8:41am

Are the pre-Haddington Road hours resuming for everyone in July does anyone know?

CivilServantCP · 10-04-2022 10:18am

Ibec & big business are running the show in DPER and at political level by the looks of things. They are making sure Dublin doesn't lose it's footfall and dont care about our well being. The only thing that could create big change, I.E. Hubs, hot desking locally, etc would be voting for or even threatening industrial action. I don't know if Forsa have been infiltrated too. But wouldn't be surprised.

TaurenDruid · 10-04-2022 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905549#Comment_118905549

That's the recommendation, at any rate: https://www.forsa.ie/haddington-road-hours/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Haddington%20Road%20agreement%20(HRA)%2C%20the%20hours%20of,to%20a%20minimum%20of%2037

10-04-2022 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905777#Comment_118905777

Can't see that happening, I must admit. Especially now with the matter of flexi not being settled.

They'll drag both out until the pay negotiations in September and then make retaining the HRA hours and non-accrual of flexi leave part of any new pay agreement.

Allow civil servants to work shorter days, accrue extra days off, and give them pay rises? Not a snowball's chance in hell that's going to happen.

Call me cynical, at this stage.

griffdaddy · 10-04-2022 2:23pm

I thought the government had already accepted the recommendation. I just hadn't heard anymore about it

AndrewJRenko · 10-04-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905517#Comment_118905517

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904705#Comment_118904705

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904355#Comment_118904355

There's nothing wrong with the Union getting involved in individual cases. Everyone deserves a defence. Union officials are trained in ethical actions these days, so they're not going to be going out on the limb for someone who is absolutely taking the pi$$. A lot of cases can look very different when you get down to the nitty gritty, and look at what training has been given, what resources are provided and more. It is part of my rationale for continuing to pay a union sub, to know that support would be available if I ever needed it.

10-04-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905733#Comment_118905733

I have always found there is little or no appetite for industrial action within the CS, and it only hardens public opinion against us.

I've been on strike action twice, once in 1996, and once in 2008 - both times, it didn't get us anywhere. Industrial action now would play right into the hands of IBEC and DPER.

Public opinion seems to be that the non-front line civil and public service have been sitting at home on full pay watching boxsets for the last two years. They will not support us in any industrial action, and never have.

TaurenDruid · 10-04-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906588#Comment_118906588

I can't find anything saying they've actually accepted and will implement it. But it'd be very unusual to not accept the recommendation? Especially so to sit on it for several months, not say anything about it, then go... "Nah."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906562#Comment_118906562

As above, I'd be surprised. The link I posted quotes Varadkar and Howlin:

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar told the media that the unpaid hours were unfair and “never intended to be permanent.” Labour’s Brendan Howlin, who was public expenditure minister when the hours were introduced, also confirmed that, at the time, they were seen as a temporary emergency measure.

They can hardly turn around this summer and go "no, that's not happening now", especially when the unions are going in looking for substantial pay rises to match inflation - one would hope! I do fully expect them to try and limit pay rises because the slightly shorter working week is coming back, though!

CivilServantCP · 10-04-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906805#Comment_118906805

Forsa need to shape it and communicate it as "CS sets an example for the private sector" . "Plus the country needs this decentralisation from Dublin to happen" . There are no need for Civil Servants to be adding fuel the house fire, living near or in Dublin if they don't want to or actually need too. For the public to go against the civil service on this front would actually be cutting off their nose to spite their face. This is down to our paid union to communicate this to the public. They've tried the Mr Nice Guy approach and DPER & Ibec basically laughed in their face and told their staff to come in 3 days a week. So come on lads up the anti a notch.

I don't know about everyone else, but I would concede a little on public sector pay rises, working hours and flexo for the sake of a Liberal remote working arrangement. Perhaps they could frame a threat of industrial action in that way?

10-04-2022 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906955#Comment_118906955

Totally unfair. Those longer hours amounted to two extra weeks worth of work a year, and was never calculated towards annual leave allowances, either.

10-04-2022 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906957#Comment_118906957

Why cant we have both? 😏

Seriously though, if I'm honest, I don't know how much I'm actually willing to concede on the pay claims this time around. The last recession with its rounds of pay cuts, pension levies, extra hours piled on all took literally years to reverse, and some of them were never fully reversed. Look at us now, in 2022, still trying to get a solid commitment to the reversals of some of the decisions made back then (HRA hours).

I'm not willing to do that again. Tiny drip fed increases 1% at a time that are instantly aborbed and only a drop in the ocean of the increase of the cost of living.

Forget about gaining public support. It will never happen, no matter how the Unions try to frame it

Hotblack Desiato · 11-04-2022 2:21am

Cold hard cash is what is needed and FORSA need to earn their pay on this issue for once.

11-04-2022 9:28am

id be with the poster above in my own circumstances, hours and wfh mean more to me than payrise at this stage

people working in lower grades will feel very differently about that id guess

forsa are playing a coy game that serves nobody

Sammy96 · 11-04-2022 12:16pm

Surely the civil service can look at being a bit more progressive and think what is the need for all the city centre Dublin offices? Surely regional hubs etc would be ideal.

This seems to be moving so slowly and I suspect even slower with resources now moving to focus on Ukrainian refugees etc.

Also Northern Ireland civil service have introduced a lot of hubs in the recent months.

11-04-2022 2:44pm

"the civil service" is a bit of a vague group alas. Sec gens and management boards, or DPER, or ministers, or the unions, or management down to level x, or individual depts- you're doing well at times if you can even track what group or mix of groups want let alone what they might agree on

Hubs are being planned and thats well under way, was the last I'd heard, but very quiet on anything officially.

Sammy96 · 11-04-2022 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118911391#Comment_118911391

The last I heard on hubs is OPW are looking at putting a plan in place to start looking how to go about sourcing accommodation on hubs.

This was last month. Not exactly well under way.

CivilServantCP · 11-04-2022 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118911776#Comment_118911776

Sure the gov are pushing ConnectedHubs every day of the week. The hubs are already there the length of the country. They could pay some kind of a flat fee to Connected Hubs for the year to cover the Civil Servants using them I'm sure.

Besides that. Just let Civil Servants use a local Department instead of commuting if they're so obsessed with us making friends at work.

11-04-2022 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912671#Comment_118912671

The logical thing to do, would be converting existing government offices into government hubs.

11-04-2022 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909653#Comment_118909653

I remember back when I was a very junior clerical assistant, a very preachy Principal Officer lecturing a group of us young ones that a 2% pay rise was a very good offer, and what were we complaining about?

I couldn't hold my tongue and snapped at her that "2% of whatever you're on a week, is a good offer. 2% of what I'm on a week, wouldn't buy me a sandwich".

They looked stunned and a little bit shamed when the penny dropped.

People in lower grades will definately feel differently, and understandably so, with inflation rising as it is and more rises in energy costs predicted.

cuttingtimber22 · 11-04-2022 9:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118913081#Comment_118913081

All I can say is fair play.

CivilServantCP · 11-04-2022 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912973#Comment_118912973

These should be red line issues for the Union. After 2 years WFH. The notion of weekly City centre attendance is nothing short of madness. Ibec in the ears of DPER and maybe even the union is the only explanation.

hardybuck · 11-04-2022 10:19pm

Has anyone had any positive experiences with returning to the office?

We're making very slow progress. Our boss sits up in their office and makes the odd fleeting appearance to the team for 5 mins. We never have team meetings together, the APs might go up once a day to their office (they might not), but that's it.

We don't really see any of our colleagues in the Division or the Department. The office canteen doesn't have services any more and is normally empty even at lunchtime.

Such an utter waste of time but I'm interested to know if anyone is having a better experience.

11-04-2022 10:50pm

Reports from some of my colleagues are that not having an assigned desk isn't working well. They find it unsettling and causing some anxiety, not knowing where they or the rest of their section are going to be on any given day and sometimes they're split up in different areas, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Sammy96 · 11-04-2022 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912973#Comment_118912973

Apparently this might be an aim but I am hearing this will take OPW years.

11-04-2022 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118913708#Comment_118913708

It will! In my experience, when the OPW is involved, everything takes years.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-04-2022 1:12am

Has anyone had any positive experiences with returning to the office?

Have to say (2 days a week) it's not been terrible, despite the usual ridiculously-loud-on-the-phone-for-an-hour people and the ones who'll waltz up to your desk and chew your ear off for half an hour over nothing in particular when you've got stuff to be doing... the joys of Open Plan eh!

No I'm not a recently hatched moany AP 😀 an office has never been an expectation for me, but years ago I did work in an 8 person office of COs, SOs and EOs where the HEO had a little sub-office with a door! I think that was more or less unique at the time, other HEOs around the place didn't have it.

Augme · 12-04-2022 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906671#Comment_118906671

They must do things much differently where you are then. From my experiences the union will get involved in absolutely anything, from crazy to the comical.

Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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