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Calor/Greengear LPG Back Up Generator.

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  • 31-01-2017 7:15pm
    #1
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭


    Has anybody bought or used one of the new LPG backup generators from Calor/Greengear ?

    I'm interested in a generator as a mains backup for the house for someone with medical equipment. I was looking at diesel until I came across LPG.

    LPG seems easier to store than petrol.
    Any body using an LPG generator ? Pro's/Con's ?
    Anybody with any trouble with LPG in the frost ?


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    #2
    crabbypaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭crabbypaddy


    Satts wrote: »
    Has anybody bought or used one of the new LPG backup generators from Calor/Greengear ?

    I'm interested in a generator as a mains backup for the house for someone with medical equipment. I was looking at diesel until I came across LPG.

    LPG seems easier to store than petrol.
    Any body using an LPG generator ? Pro's/Con's ?
    Anybody with any trouble with LPG in the frost ?

    I don't run an lpg generator but have experience of fixing small petrol ones and know a bit about lpg cars.

    Pros of lpg cleaner burning, possibly marginally quieter, no problems with stale petrol, carburettors getting waxed up, sticking needles etc. in my experience you really need to drain down small petrol generators when they are being stored or regularly start / run them which isn't ideal in a backup situation.

    Cons more expensive to buy, probably 1/3 more expensive to run if buying cylinder gas vs petrol at current prices thats probably not an issue either in a backup situation. If it stops working you're local small engine man isn't going to have a clue so it probably back to base but to be fair a lot of pertrol generators are electronically controlled with epoxy potted gubbins and can't be fixed locally either.

    Also make sure they are registered on the vulnerable person register:
    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/who-we-are/customer-service/vulnerable-customer-policy

    If its a small item like a cpap machine or nebuliser maybe even a ventilator then battery backup might be and option?


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    #3
    Pat Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Pat Dunne


    Satts wrote: »
    Has anybody bought or used one of the new LPG backup generators from Calor/Greengear ?

    I'm interested in a generator as a mains backup for the house for someone with medical equipment. I was looking at diesel until I came across LPG.
    In all fairness Satts, if your request is to solely obtain information on which generator to buy as a mains back-up to run medical equiptment and is not camper or caravan related This is not the place, as no one here is suitably qualified to speak on the matter.

    I would strongly suggest that you base you decision on the qualified expert opinion you receive from the suppliers of the equipment and other suitable resources and not an internet forum.


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    #4
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    crabbypaddy wrote: »
    I don't run an lpg generator but have experience of fixing small petrol ones and know a bit about lpg cars.

    Pros of lpg cleaner burning, possibly marginally quieter, no problems with stale petrol, carburettors getting waxed up, sticking needles etc. in my experience you really need to drain down small petrol generators when they are being stored or regularly start / run them which isn't ideal in a backup situation.

    Cons more expensive to buy, probably 1/3 more expensive to run if buying cylinder gas vs petrol at current prices thats probably not an issue either in a backup situation. If it stops working you're local small engine man isn't going to have a clue so it probably back to base but to be fair a lot of pertrol generators are electronically controlled with epoxy potted gubbins and can't be fixed locally either.

    Also make sure they are registered on the vulnerable person register:
    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/who-we-are/customer-service/vulnerable-customer-policy

    If its a small item like a cpap machine or nebuliser maybe even a ventilator then battery backup might be and option?

    Thanks CrabbyPaddy.
    Yes, we are on the ESB register. It may help with prioritising work and switching sources etc, but if your line is down you still have to wait.

    Yes, we have battery backup, so no immediate emergency.
    But would need electricity to run oil heating as sick person couldn't stay in the cold, water well pump and medical stuff if more than a few hours.

    Do you know of any problems with LPG such as freezing ?
    Is there a certain point in the tank when pressure drops and generator would possibly not give it's full output ?


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    #5
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    Pat Dunne wrote: »
    In all fairness Satts, if your request is to solely obtain information on which generator to buy as a mains back-up to run medical equiptment and is not camper or caravan related This is not the place, as no one here is suitably qualified to speak on the matter.

    I would strongly suggest that you base you decision on the qualified expert opinion you receive from the suppliers of the equipment and other suitable resources and not an internet forum.

    Hi Pat, there is a reason for everything.
    From what I can see there are three places on boards where they talk about generators, here, the Survival thread and the Electrical thread.
    I figure Campers are the best people to ask about the pros and cons of LPG as they are constantly using it and someone here may even have an LPG generator.

    Best of luck with finding a supplier who is a qualified expert.
    Most know less than I do.

    My job is technical and I know could manage with a 5 or 6 Kw diesel or go mad and get an 8 to 15kw diesel with large tank, stabilize the fuel and get an automatic transfer switch and for added safety get some UPS's for the delicate equipment in the house, but I want to explore the alternatives.

    I think petrol is out as it is too dangerous to store, fuel going stale, don't fancy a petrol gen running 24/7 if it had to.

    Diesel is probably the safest but the generators are expensive, a 5kw silent diesel with a large tank about €4500, a 5kw LPG about €1100.
    And if you paired and LPG generator with a 47kg tank I reckon you could get 40 plus hours of use, unless someone with experience might tell me for example I will loose power on the bottom half of the tank etc.

    Please do not judge posters reasons for posting in a specific thread, if you can add something add it, if not, stay quiet.

    I want to ask people who actually use generators and LPG not some sour sales guy who is struggling to read specs from a brochure, a brouchure I know off by heart before he even reads it.


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    #6
    Pat Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Pat Dunne


    Satts wrote: »
    Hi Pat, there is a reason for everything.
    From what I can see there are three places on boards where they talk about generators, here, the Survival thread and the Electrical thread.
    I figure Campers are the best people to ask about the pros and cons of LPG as they are constantly using it and someone here may even have an LPG generator.

    Best of luck with finding a supplier who is a qualified expert.
    Most know less than I do.

    My job is technical and I know could manage with a 5 or 6 Kw diesel or go mad and get an 8 to 15kw diesel with large tank, stabilize the fuel and get an automatic transfer switch and for added safety get some UPS's for the delicate equipment in the house, but I want to explore the alternatives.

    I think petrol is out as it is too dangerous to store, fuel going stale, don't fancy a petrol gen running 24/7 if it had to.

    Diesel is probably the safest but the generators are expensive, a 5kw silent diesel with a large tank about €4500, a 5kw LPG about €1100.
    And if you paired and LPG generator with a 47kg tank I reckon you could get 40 plus hours of use, unless someone with experience might tell me for example I will loose power on the bottom half of the tank etc.

    Please do not judge posters reasons for posting in a specific thread, if you can add something add it, if not, stay quiet.

    I want to ask people who actually use generators and LPG not some sour sales guy who is struggling to read specs from a brochure, a brouchure I know off by heart before he even reads it.
    Fair enough Pal!

    My job is also "technical" and I hold a number of internationally recognised qualifications and standards. However I wouldn't be arrogant or stupid enough to offer advice on an internet forum in regard of the operation of a medical appliance.


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    #7
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    MOD NOTE:
    We're all adults here, please keep it civil and dial down the panic button, Thank you


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    #8
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    Pat Dunne wrote: »
    Fair enough Pal!

    My job is also "technical" and I hold a number of internationally recognised qualifications and standards. However I wouldn't be arrogant or stupid enough to offer advice on an internet forum in regard of the operation of a medical appliance.

    You can be a member of Mensa for all I care.

    I am not looking for advice on the operation of medical equipment.

    I am looking for a method of providing 230 volt AC in the unlikely event of a mains failure.
    One of those methods happens to be an LPG generator, which I don't have experience of and some of the people here might have and any answers may help other campers.


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    #9
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Is there mains/natural gas available in the area ?


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    #10
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Is there mains/natural gas available in the area ?

    Hi gctest50,

    No, I'm out in the sticks I'm afraid. I would love one of those American type LPG generators.

    I heat the house with oil, I suppose there is the option of switching to gas and get gas delivered to a bulk tank and use that tank to feed a generator as well but it would be an extra cost.


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    #11
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Bulk tank gas can be $$$$ here to heat yer home afaik

    How about the other way

    - re-jet / adjust your boiler to run on diesel and fuel a diesel generator from that

    the diesel fuel would always be fresh ( saves stabilizing it and dumping it )


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    #12
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Or if you have a diesel car/van, leave your heating alone and get in a bulk tank for road-diesel and refuel the genny from that

    - yay - slightly cheaper motoring, fresh fuel all the time for the little genny

    - :( $$$ if you have lots of long power cuts , danger of theft


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    #13
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Bulk tank gas can be $$$$ here to heat yer home afaik

    How about the other way

    - re-jet / adjust your boiler to run on diesel and fuel a diesel generator from that

    the diesel fuel would always be fresh ( saves stabilizing it and dumping it )

    Good idea gctest50. The extra cost of a diesel generator(compared to petrol/LPG) maybe worth it for the convience of a large fuel supply on hand.
    Burning Kerosene at the moment, so I would have to re-adjust.


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    #14
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Because of need ( power = heating/water/air for person at home ) could you get a little of the tax back on the fuel or something ?


    https://www.maxol.ie/product-and-pricing/wholesale-prices


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    #15
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Because of need ( power = heating/water/air for person at home ) could you get a little of the tax back on the fuel or something ?


    https://www.maxol.ie/product-and-pricing/wholesale-prices

    I'm not sure, I will have to check it out thanks.

    Diesel is a few cents dearer than Kerosene per litre.
    Would you know if it burns the same as Kero or would it last a little longer ?


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    #16
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭db


    Hi Satts
    I have been looking into these generators for much the same reasons as you. They run on Propane which works at much lower temperatures than butane. You can buy large tanks of propane from Calor so you would have longer running time on a tank without having to store and fill up the fuel. It would also be much cheaper to run than a petrol generator and probably a bit cheaper than diesel.
    The only reason I haven't gone for it yet is that they are new in the market and I'm not sure how well regulated the AC output is. Particularly with medical equipment you don't want spikes in the power. I have a number of the person in Calor who knows about these if you want it - just send me a PM.


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    #17
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Bit more in Kero i think - need to ask the plumbers for advantages/disadvantages i spose ?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1320


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    #18
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    db wrote: »
    Hi Satts
    I have been looking into these generators for much the same reasons as you. They run on Propane which works at much lower temperatures than butane. You can buy large tanks of propane from Calor so you would have longer running time on a tank without having to store and fill up the fuel. It would also be much cheaper to run than a petrol generator and probably a bit cheaper than diesel.
    The only reason I haven't gone for it yet is that they are new in the market and I'm not sure how well regulated the AC output is. Particularly with medical equipment you don't want spikes in the power. I have a number of the person in Calor who knows about these if you want it - just send me a PM.

    Thanks db.
    Wondering about the stability of the AC on the Greengear myself.
    I was thinking of getting some UPS's as a buffer.

    I have seen some Inverter type generators converted to LPG for sale such as Honda, Yamaha and Yamaha based SDMO generators, although more expensive, may be more stable.


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    #19
    crabbypaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭crabbypaddy


    Satts wrote: »
    Thanks CrabbyPaddy.
    Yes, we are on the ESB register. It may help with prioritising work and switching sources etc, but if your line is down you still have to wait.

    Yes, we have battery backup, so no immediate emergency.
    But would need electricity to run oil heating as sick person couldn't stay in the cold, water well pump and medical stuff if more than a few hours.

    Do you know of any problems with LPG such as freezing ?
    Is there a certain point in the tank when pressure drops and generator would possibly not give it's full output ?

    Its butane that has issues with freezing, propane should be no problem in our climate.

    You would need to check with the manufacturers of the medical equipment some things will require an inverter type generator.

    Well pump could be a challenge also depending on the size of the motor. If its deep well the pump may have a massive starting current which can be problematic for generators the sudden large load can stall the generator or cause the voltage to drop which in turn can trip out or damage electronics.

    Heating is no problem ~ 300w for a typical riello oil burner + typical ciculation pump. Starting current for both simultaneously maybe 5A- 8A, could be less for a modern electronic circulation pump.


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You can fill a genset with red die$el. You can also run the genset coolant through a secondary water cylinder in an immersion tank system to harness some of the waste energy (40%) as useful hot water.

    I think most UPS are designed only to allow a shut-down time. ie. they have very small batteries. But there's nothing to stop you from keeping the UPS and tailing onto a larger battery like a forklift set and the UPS will have a charger.

    In which case a battery inverter charger combi might be of interest. Some of the more refined ones have a far lower self-consumption than a UPS and offer genset support (to torque fill motor starting) and power filtering, with Genset autostart in low battery condition.

    My Mastervolt Mass Combi True Sine 2.5kVA has all of these features.

    Price per volume must be compared to embodied energy per volume to get a true appraisal of fuel economies.

    Some inverters can produce cleaner power than parts of our national grid.

    I'm a bittova Lister fancier myself.

    11mc9vq.jpg

    Clicky


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    #21
    sunshinereggae
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭sunshinereggae


    Hi Satts, I also liked the idea of propane and I'm just after buying a duel fuel, petrol and propane generator a champion CPG7500E2-DF that I'm going to install for backup, I'm replacing an old belle minigen 2000 that I used to use for both work and backup, I can't comment on reliability as I have not got it long and have not used it in anger yet. I've only done a few test runs on both petrol and propane but initial impressions are good, but we'll have to see if I get the return out of it that I got from the belle (17 years and still running petrol only). Its a big lump compared to the belle, not as portable 7kw vs 3kw, 6kw on propane according to specs, electric and pull start, slightly harder to pull start than the honda gx200 in the belle, voltage, Hz and hours display, 32A sockets 240 & 110v, not the quietest, slightly quieter on propane but not much. Runs at a fairly constant 246V according to display but I've not verified that yet, came with uk propane regulator which I changed, I'm still running tests on it and have not installed it properly yet, I too liked the idea of propane so I said I'd take a chance on it, time will tell if its a good decision or not, its too soon to tell yet for me.


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    #22
    Scottyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Scottyjohn


    Hi, I bought one to use for my food trailer as I was told it would be quiet enough to have running next to my stall.
    It wasn't quiet at all, was annoying other traders. Also, it's meant to be cheaper to run but actually the Honda EU30is petrol generator I have now is much much cheaper to run as it's an inverter generator and only uses the power it needs as opposed to the LPG greengear genny which just constantly used up the same amount of fuel regardless of usage.
    I'm wary of advising anything given the fact it's for medical equipment, but I'm extremely happy with the honda, they're not cheap though. I got mine second hand sent over from England, guy called Pete Power.

    Actually, re-reading your post I don't know that the Honda would be any good for long-term use, I use mine 11 hours a day but I don't run it constantly.

    I do know for a fact though that the greengear generators are neither quiet nor cost-effective, hence I sent mine back.

    Best of luck,

    John


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    #23
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    Thanks Scottyjohn,

    Your post sums up what I was thinking myself. They seem to be mainly pushing them at agricultural shows.

    We no longer need to run medical equipment, but I would still like a backup generator.

    We lost power for 5 days after hurricane Ophelia. We got a loan of a 6kw petrol during this time. It wasn't invertor or it didn't have AVR. It was adequate, just had to juggle the larger applicanes around but it ran everything. The lights did dip sometimes so I would recommend a gen with some sort of voltage control. I tried not to use delicate electronics during this time.

    If I was to go petrol I would love the Honda EU70is. 5.5/7 Kw. Invertor, fuel injection(no carb to get gummed up),eco throttle, very quiet.

    If I was to go diesel I would love the Mosa GE SX - 10000 KTDM 8/9Kw. Kubota engine.

    Both of these are probably too expensive for home back up and the Mosa is probably OTT.

    But if we were still running medical equipment I think these would be great.


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    #24
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    You can fill a genset with red die$el. You can also run the genset coolant through a secondary water cylinder in an immersion tank system to harness some of the waste energy (40%) as useful hot water.

    I think most UPS are designed only to allow a shut-down time. ie. they have very small batteries. But there's nothing to stop you from keeping the UPS and tailing onto a larger battery like a forklift set and the UPS will have a charger.

    In which case a battery inverter charger combi might be of interest. Some of the more refined ones have a far lower self-consumption than a UPS and offer genset support (to torque fill motor starting) and power filtering, with Genset autostart in low battery condition.

    My Mastervolt Mass Combi True Sine 2.5kVA has all of these features.

    Price per volume must be compared to embodied energy per volume to get a true appraisal of fuel economies.

    Some inverters can produce cleaner power than parts of our national grid.

    I'm a bittova Lister fancier myself.

    11mc9vq.jpg

    Clicky


    Thanks Sir Liamalot, some good ideas there. Is that your Lister ?


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    #25
    Satts
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭Satts


    sunshinereggae wrote: »
    Hi Satts, I also liked the idea of propane and I'm just after buying a duel fuel, petrol and propane generator a champion CPG7500E2-DF that I'm going to install for backup, I'm replacing an old belle minigen 2000 that I used to use for both work and backup, I can't comment on reliability as I have not got it long and have not used it in anger yet. I've only done a few test runs on both petrol and propane but initial impressions are good, but we'll have to see if I get the return out of it that I got from the belle (17 years and still running petrol only). Its a big lump compared to the belle, not as portable 7kw vs 3kw, 6kw on propane according to specs, electric and pull start, slightly harder to pull start than the honda gx200 in the belle, voltage, Hz and hours display, 32A sockets 240 & 110v, not the quietest, slightly quieter on propane but not much. Runs at a fairly constant 246V according to display but I've not verified that yet, came with uk propane regulator which I changed, I'm still running tests on it and have not installed it properly yet, I too liked the idea of propane so I said I'd take a chance on it, time will tell if its a good decision or not, its too soon to tell yet for me.

    Hi Sunshinereggae,

    How are you getting on with the Champion ?


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Satts wrote: »
    Thanks Sir Liamalot, some good ideas there. Is that your Lister ?

    Not yet. :D


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    #27
    sunshinereggae
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭sunshinereggae


    Satts wrote: »
    Hi Sunshinereggae,

    How are you getting on with the Champion ?

    Hi Satts,
    So far so good, I've used it in anger three times now, the longest for six days so not so bad, starts and runs fine, powers everything in house bar shower, realistically its too soon to tell about reliability but I'm not regretting it so far anyway, I had myself convinced that once I got a new genny that there would probably not be any power outages but I was wrong, the storms have not been kind to the ESB. I run it on propane 47kg bottle, I have a gas hob so always keep a spare bottle anyway, I must compare petrol to propane consumption if I get a chance (hopefully not too soon) I bought a manual changeover switch but haven't got around to fitting it yet, I'll post if it gives me any grief but so far so good.
    Take it easy


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    #28
    Saladin Ane
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Saladin Ane


    Any more update on this? Am thinking of buying a Greengear 3KW LPG genny. Just for microwave, lighting and charging power tools.



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    #29
    apuds
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭apuds


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916297#Comment_118916297

    I bought one (3kg) last year.

    I had a manual transfer switch fitted and have only tested the unit as a backup for an hour or so.

    It was powering my fridge, freezer, all lights and boiler.



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    #30
    RainInSummer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭RainInSummer


    A word of caution on microwaves. Unusually for an electrical appliance their started wattage isn't what they'll pull.

    800W microwave could draw 1.2-1.4kW.



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