at what point does 'interfering' with someone else's car/property become illegal?

magicbastarder · 17-03-2022 12:10pm #1

there was a thread on the motors forum about dirty number plates, and one poster claims to clean them (on stranger's cars) on occasion. as there was concern that this would be illegal - interfering with someone else's property - i am curious as to whether there's any truth in this?

my (uneducated) assumption would be there would be nothing illegal; there is no trespass element (which is not a criminal issue anyway AFAIK), no damage caused, no material cost to the owner. it may be seen as rude, obviously, but not much more than that?

to use a perhaps more everyday situation; say i have parked my car on a public street in a public parking place, and i spot someone leaning against it. i tell them not to lean against my car; is there anything beyond social convention which would force them to stop leaning against it? or could they say 'you've parked your car in a public place, i am not causing it any damage, and i too am standing on public property'.

and yes, i am well aware this is not a burning hot legal issue which is causing problems up and down the country.

AndrewJRenko · 17-03-2022 1:21pm

I always enjoy the Stop A Douchebag videos where they are accused of 'vandalism' for putting a sticker on a windscreen. It seems there is a clear definition in law of property damage being above the value of 1,000 roubles in Russia. Hard to see what kind of damage is caused by wiping a reg plate.

FishOnABike · 17-03-2022 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797992#Comment_118797992

So anything more than about €8.50 and falling rapidly?

AndrewJRenko · 13-04-2022 8:17pm

Seems to work OK for the SADB guys

https://youtu.be/YEuILNBe5hU?t=22

sam t smith · 13-04-2022 8:24pm

I’d say that poster mentioned in the OP polishes his helmet while he is down cleaning the licence plate.

NUTLEY BOY · 14-04-2022 3:15pm

Under the Road Traffic Act 1961 - section - 113 it is an offence to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle. "A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place"

Link https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/113/enacted/en/html#sec113

Under the Criminal Damage Act 1991 - section 1 - to damage includes in relation to property other than data (but including a storage medium in which data are kept), to destroy, deface, dismantle or, whether temporarily or otherwise, render inoperable or unfit for use or prevent or impair the operation of,

Section 2 defines the offence.

Link https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/31/enacted/en/print.html

Cleaning number plates looks unlikely to trouble anyone. Mind you there are a few ways of cleaning a dirty number plate one of which might be another offence 😀

magicbastarder · 15-04-2022 9:49am

i assume 'interfering with the mechanism' wouldn't cover cleaning a number plate (but would, i assume, cover modifying it or making it unreadable).

good to know that me writing 'this car is also available in white' on dirty cars when i was a kid did not run afoul of any laws.

Akrasia · 15-04-2022 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797992#Comment_118797992

The damage to them, is that they'll get a speeding ticket when they otherwise would have gotten away with it

GM228 · 15-04-2022 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930138#Comment_118930138

The problem here is interpreting "mechanism", obviously it's not interpreted in the Act so the common understanding applies (there is no case law on the matter), would anyone consider a number plate to be a mechanism under the common understanding of the word?

mechanism /ˈmɛk(ə)nɪz(ə)m /

▸ noun

a system of parts working together in a machine; a piece of machinery

I'm not convinced it would cover modifying or making it unreadable.

Claw Hammer · 15-04-2022 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930286#Comment_118930286

I think the o/p in this thread is talking about making it readable. It is clearly the civil wrong of trespass to goods but since it was a minimal technical trespass law is unlikely to provide a remedy on the basis of not concern itself and try. It is unlikely to be criminal damage since there is no damage (although the posters on the Motors detailing forum of other ideas) on the basis there is no repair needed.

magicbastarder · 15-04-2022 6:08pm

i'd never heard of trespass to goods, but if this is a reasonably comprehensive explanation, it doesn't seem to apply here?

https://mcmahonsolicitors.ie/trespass-to-goods/

GM228 · 16-04-2022 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931572#Comment_118931572

I'm not convinced that simply cleaning or dirtying a licence plate will amount to an actionable tort of trespass to goods (forget the de minimis rule for a moment).

Whilst simply touching the plate is technically a trespass to goods simpliciter, I don't believe it would be considered a tort, part of the test for the tort of trespass to goods involves interference with the possession of goods/chattels, it is certainly interfering with the licence plate, but is it interfering with the owners possession of said plate?

Cleaning a plate certainly won't amount to criminal damage either, but, strictly speaking dirtying one potentially could amount to criminal damage.

AndrewJRenko · 17-04-2022 12:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118936326#Comment_118936326

Would it be considered 'touching' if only the wipe touches the plate?

markpb · 17-04-2022 4:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237750/at-what-point-does-interfering-with-someone-elses-car-property-become-illegal

You said that cleaning your number plate could be seen as rude - why is that? One of my kids left my car door open in a shopping centre recently and a passer-by closed it for me. Is that also rude? There was a poster here a few years ago who saw a car without a parking ticket so they bought one and lifted the wiper to attach it to the car. That’s definitely interfering with the the mechanism, presumably it was rude too?

magicbastarder · 17-04-2022 6:52am

You said that cleaning your number plate could be seen as rude - why is that?

Because many people reacted that way in the thread I referred to, and at least one person suggested it could be illegal.

markpb · 17-04-2022 8:35am

Presumably that was in motors forum where the average poster sees their car as an extension of themselves and any attempt to interact with their car or interfere with their driving is seen as an act of personal violence?

Peregrinus · 19-04-2022 4:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930286#Comment_118930286

There must be an argument that, in an offence provision (so, construed narrowly) that refers to the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle, this is going to be interpreted as referring to the propulsion mechanism - engine, transmission, etc.

GM228 · 19-04-2022 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118944921#Comment_118944921

Why just the propulsion related systems?

It deals with a mechanically propelled vehicle, not the mechanical propulsion of a vehicle, the offence in my opinion would cover all mechanisms of a mechanically propelled vehicle even when taking into consideration the narrow construction of a penal offence and strict statutory interpretation rules.

What of say the door handles or locking system, the fuel cap, electric windows regulators to name but a few, they are afterall a system of parts working together in a machine, there's something in the back of my mind regarding a case of glueing locks (which IIRC the court held could be either this or criminal damage), but, I can't remember the case for certain though so won't state that as fact.

I think if the Oireachtas intended on limiting the offence to the propulsion system then it would clearly state so, and I think any question of statutory interpretation by the courts would agree.

Peregrinus · 19-04-2022 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118945841#Comment_118945841

To be honest, I think you're probably right.

But it's worth thinking about the scope and purpose of this offence. I agree with your earlier post suggesting that cleaning the number plate would not be "interfering with the mechanism", on the basis that a number plate is not a "mechanism". Cleaning the number plate is not an offence at all, I think. Scratching the paintwork or breaking the window-glass would also not be interfering with the mechanism; paint and glass are not, in the ordinary sense of the word, "mechanisms". But this conduct would be an offence — criminal damage.

Right. At the other end of the scale, interfering with the engine, transmission, etc, obviously would be "interfering with the mechanism". What about interfering with the door locks? Snapping off the windscreen wipers? Removing the control knows from the car radio? Locks, windscreen wipers and radio knobs are all "mechanisms" in the ordinary sense of that word. But these behaviours would already be the offence of criminal damage; why the need to create a second offence to cover them?

I think the answer is that the criminal damage offence involves, well, damage, whereas the interference offence doesn't. If I, e.g., release the handbrake so that your car rolls away, or could do so unexpectedly, I haven't damaged the mechanism - it still works perfectly well - and I couldn't (without more facts) be convicted of criminal damage. But I have created a danger. Similarly if I put your car in gear when you left it in neutral, there is a danger of unexpected movement when you activate the ignition, thinking the car is in neutral. And we could think of various other things that I might do that don't damage your car but that still create a problem that the law needs to address.

I suspect this is why "mechanism" is mentioned. The offence could have been framed as "a person shall not . . . interfere or attempt to interfere with a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary . . . " etc. But the inclusion of the reference to the mechanism means the offence targets the kind of interference that will or may result in a (possibly unexpected) change to the way the vehicle operates.

at what point does 'interfering' with someone else's car/property become illegal?

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