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Wallace and Daly

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭MFPM


    Thanks for the mini though unnecessary lecture. Glad to see amidst the waffle you didn't counter a point I made!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    and though it was enlightened in some ways - it's history of brutality overshadows it all.

    Oh would you ever give over with anti Western the sackcloth and ashes towards Europe bullshíte. "Though it was enlightened in some ways" 🙄 Europe literally gave the world the Enlightenment and the Classical world, the Renaissance(not just one) the Industrial revolution, modern democracy, even the idea and practice of a constitution. An absolutely massive proportion of the laws and rights the world takes for granted came about because of Europe and Europeans going right back to the classical world. A huge chunk of the everyday things you interact with and take for granted, from the toliet you sit on to the clothes you wear, the media you consume, the window you look out of, the car you drive and yes even the ability to vote in or against Wallace and Gromit is European in origin. Invented in China printing had little enough impact beyond religious texts, passed through the Muslim world where it had even less, made it to Europe, was improved and within the span of a lifetime completely revolutionised the spread and growth of information. The very idea of indexing on this site owes its debt to that. And a large part of that was down to the internal competition present in Europe, something absent in the empires of China and Islam(or Russia for that matter).

    And yes that internal competition drove conflict as well as innovation. It's what it tends to do. Lack of internal competition causes stagnation as it tends to do. A 12th century peasant in the Caliphate or China if brought to the 19th century in those places would have observed remarkably few differences, a 12th century peasant in Germany or France or Italy brought to the 19th century would think he'd fallen into an alien world. And he'd have a lot more rights to wander about in it and be less "oppressed" while doing so. When we think of slavery most, because of European and European colony bias, think of the European Atlantic slave trade in Africans. And yes it was a horror, but it lasted for a couple of centuries and it was Europeans who outlawed it, while slavery in the rest of the world had been going on for far longer and happily continued long after too. The Islamic world was riven with it and backed by their religion, China only outlawed it in the early 20th century, ditto for much of Africa.

    And if you don't think the rest of the world didn't have an extremely violent history of conflict and conquest I've some magic beans to sell you. There are precious few cultures on this planet whose soil is not soaked in the blood of previous generations.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    I'm well aware about the innovations and benefits Europe have brought to mankind, and am a proud European. Some of the best political thinkers, engineers, inventors and strategic minds have come out of Europe.

    Can other countries be bad? Yes, probably. But factually, Europeans can count amongst them the largest proportion of warmongers, tyrants, genocidist, and thieves in all of history, and this can't be whitewashed.

    Many of these had little trouble getting their populations to fight in thousands of wars causing millions of deaths, enslave millions, and in our darkest hour, industrialise murder. And yes we invented toilets.

    The EU has allowed us to focus on the good things Europe can do (as clearly referenced by you) and not repeat the dark and bloody acts that is so evidently in our nature, whether you admit it or not.

    It scares me that these nationalist politicians like le pen, Brexiteers etc are coming more to the fore, as that brings out the very worst of Europe. Europe's default position isn't one of peace and harmony, and the current status quo should never be taken for granted. The stuff going on in Ukraine should waken us up to that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,437 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well I did my best, but if you still can't understand it, that's on you



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Can other countries be bad? Yes, probably.

    Probably? I'm surprised you even went that far.

    But factually, Europeans can count amongst them the largest proportion of warmongers, tyrants, genocidist, and thieves in all of history, and this can't be whitewashed.

    "Factually" as far as - and I fúcking hate to go here - some sections of the "liberal" mind are willing to travel, whether because of the ignorance of their politic, or the politic of their ignorance. The history of South East Asia is one of tyrants and butchers fighting over resources, of mini empires waxing and waning leaving misery in its wake. Just because you can't name the actors, doesn't mean the stage wasn't set and the script wasn't the same. Hell today in Thailand you can go to gaol for criticism of their royals and have to crawl around on the floor beneath the current throne holder as he parades around in his shiny shorts and bellytop with his coterie of whores.

    Japan even though an island was a back and forth of conflict and misery between different warlords, where lopping off peasants heads was a national sport at times. And if you want to get closer to today, look at how the Japanese operated in their imperial push in the 1930's and 40's as far as genocide, mass rape, murder and human experimentation that even had the German nazis thought was a bit "ah here lads". Indeed it turned out that a German merchant and card carrying nazi party member, one Herr Rabe was one of the few to try and stop the Rape of Nankang and protect the local Chinese from the barbarous hordes of Japanese. It's estimated he saved hundreds of thousands of Chinese men women and children. Funny how things can go*.

    The Chinese empire had her fair share of this too in her tooing and froing of her borders and within them too. The Mongols had the largest land empire in human history and they didn't get that by sending flowers and chocolates. The Khans pillaged and raped so many that even today a notable proportion of Asian men carry their genes on their Y chromosome. Though as usual it's not that simple and they also brought stability and law, even if it was on mountains of bodies.

    The Muslim caliphate kicked off hard too, but also brought culture and innovation until it stopped and went backwards and inwards while still fighting within and without. India was a melee of back and forth conflict and despots. One reason it was easy enough for European powers to take over by exploiting that.

    The Mesoamericans were at near constant war and some had the lovely idea of ripping the still beating hearts of thousands of their enemies and throwing them off temples to their sky fairies, or bludgeoning doped up little kids to death on top of mountains as sacrifices to same. Though they were only brilliant at inventing accurate calenders. If we point our nose at Africa we'd be here all bloody day, and I do mean bloody.

    The EU has allowed us to focus on the good things Europe can do (as clearly referenced by you) and not repeat the dark and bloody acts that is so evidently in our nature, whether you admit it or not.

    In "our nature" eh? Africa has been for much of human history a primitive and often bloody backwater with a few flourishes to her north and a few in the south. Is that in their "nature" too? I seriously doubt you'd consider that thought for even a second and if you did a strong course of self flagellation would be in play. But apparently it's OK to think same of Europeans, let's face it White people.

    This is just another example of the post WW2, post 60's "left" counterculture moral and cultural equivalence and xenophilia, but only when and where it suits. And yet another European innovation as it happens.








    *when he got home to Germany, he got short shrift from the Party, after the war he was denounced as a nazi and forgotten. The Chinese didn't forget though and after they heard what had befallen him their ambassador sought him out and brought food for him and his family who were starving. Chinese people raised money to support him and his family. After he died he was buried in Germany, but in the 90's his tombstone was brought to China and erected as a memorial to a man who against the odds saved hundreds of thousands of her people.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    I’d rather you didn’t try to put my into some “woke box”, or say I am “anti white”, or whatever internet bull you are trying conjure up. I’m well aware of Japanese imperialism ,atrocities in Nanking, aware of the Mongol empire and Pax Mongolica (whose cost was approx. 10% of the world’s population at the time), how there are far less rights in other parts of the world etc. etc.. 

    It’s just rather easy to extoll the virtues of European history whilst lazily passing off the dark side as being “only slavery for a few centuries”, or “everyone else is bad too”.

    Other continents did not launch two world wars, other continents did not industrialize the genocide of approx. 20 million people, other continents did not create and industrialize the enslavement of tens of millions of people, other continents did not forcefully colonize landmasses totalling 80% of the world. You can say if they could have they would have, but Europeans did it, and it all culminated in WW2 – which was in every way humanity’s darkest hour – death and destruction on such an unimaginable scale. We did this, and need to own it, prevent it happening again, and be instigators of change and peaceful civilization instead of pointing the finger at other people and saying sure you are as bad.

    As a European I am very happy with the luxuries and rights I live with today, but I don’t deny for one second that suffering, pillaging, rape, war and murder helped to make it possible. Your position of “I am happy with my luxuries and I don’t really care how I got it” is exactly what will perpetuate it happening again.

    As an Irishman ( I assume you are Irish) you should see first-hand the destruction of lives and culture that British imperialism wrought on this country, so should recognize both sides of the argument.

    First and foremost, the EU was created as an instrument of peace, so that the atrocities of the past cannot be repeated. As I said before, the fact that countries whose people murdered one another for hundreds of years can both set aside AND respect one another’s differences, and work toward a common good is astounding, and goes against our history. For 60 odd years it has succeeded, and has done so much for the people of Europe, and the world. I hope this is echoed the world over in all zones which have endured conflict, and the world can move on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,437 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Unfortunately you don't need to go back in time to witness the behaviour of people when they can can get away with something. There are invaders in Ukraine raping and murdering their way with abandon. It's very simplistic to look back in history and think "yeah but sure if X wasn't fighting then there would have just been peace everywhere". People would have needed to protect themselves and their populations too.

    European powers had the upper hand in recent centuries so they colonised. Other powers also colonised and set up their own empires bu that was either further back in history, or else they were eventually overpowered. If European powers had not had the upper hand, it is not that there would have been no colonisation - more that they would have instead been colonised.

    Fun fact - the year Columbus "discovered America" is coincidentally considered the last year of the reconquista.


    China is currently colonising parts of Africa by stealth. Alongside the "moral" reasons against it, from a geopolitical point of view, there is a massive danger to other countries by them gaining such control and influence over the region.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    I absolutely know that - that is why institutions such as the EU are all the more important. As I said in a previous post, the mundane, boring number crunching bureaucracy of it all is a fantastic achievement. It's not sexy or exciting, but it has proven to be the best preventative measure from mass war, death and corruption on this continent. Countries who may give not share the EU's values will clamor to join in the face of the Russian murderous onslaught, which as history shows us, is often the alternative. It's such a pity Wallace and Daly are making a mockery of it in siding with Russia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,745 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    He's confusing 'socialist types' with Fine Gael and a UN researcher.

    You're confusing the Jewish faith with apartheid lsrael.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    European powers had the upper hand in recent centuries so they colonised. Other powers also colonised and set up their own empires bu that was either further back in history, or else they were eventually overpowered. If European powers had not had the upper hand, it is not that there would have been no colonisation - more that they would have instead been colonised.

    Much of that colonisation drive by European powers was down to them coming to terms with the fact they couldn't really do it within Europe and came to a vague agreement they wouldn't try(for the most part). Since Rome fell a goodly number tried to kick off a New Rome within Europe, but it rarely lasted long. Even Hitler's war was trying that for size, as was Napoleon's. The geopolitics didn't work so well, so instead they looked beyond Europe's shores to build empires.

    China and the Caliphate were already empires so this was much less in play. The Chinese had their own brief age of exploration in their neck of the woods, but gave up on it very quickly. They had to defend their own borders rather than create new ones and more problems. The small in size European powers outsourced. Their age of exploration was hand in glove with empire building. When Europeans did fight each other they tended to do it more by proxy and overseas, because it was too damned destructive back home. Rome had been an empire of course and a very powerful and advanced one for many centuries, so they didn't really bother with much by way of exploration.

    This internal competion also drove innovation like crazy. So when gunpowder rocked up in Europe from China, where it had been used as a weapon but in quite limited ways, the first European nation who got it built on it, then their neighbours got wind of it, copied and built on it again and you had a pan European arms race, which gives you advancements in chemistry, metallurgy and ballistics and all that comes from that. Same for other "foreign" innovations like the compass, the rudder, printing. The pressures to improve on stuff like that was far higher in Europe than pretty much anywhere else on the planet. That spilled into the sciences and arts too. That's where their upper hand largely came from.

    Another aspect was Europe was much harder to invade and take over because of all these small states with well honed militaries within it. Empires are centralised so to take over you take over the heart of the empire, bump off the emperor and crown yourself. The rest of the empire will generally just continue on under new management. You attack Europe and lets say you take out the Poles, which will hurt, then the Hungarians, well you haven't taken Europe. You then have to deal with the Italians(avoid the Swiss like the plague) the Germans are in play, then the Poles will probably fight back seeing you have your hands full and then you have to deal with the French which for most of European history good luck with that sunshine. Never mind the Spanish and Portuguese, or the Russians at your back for that matter. The Islamic world at her peak had a damned good go, but even they realised feck this for a game of soldiers.

    Other factors were things like greater social mobility that really kicked off after the plague also drove innovation. Gutenburg was a goldsmith and radically improved mechanical printing. In China it would be more likely that because he was a goldsmith he wouldn't have been listened to and his climb through the social orders would have been more difficult(state exams and sometimes the military were pretty much the only way to rise above one's station). The other factor was though Rome had fallen in the west, the Roman church hadn't so until the Reformation there had been a two tier rule across the continent. One the temporal that fought among different groups, the other a more binding force, though there was much back and forth. The Reformation just added to the internal competition and the powerbase moved northwards.

    Even oddball things like the simple European alphabet had an impact. Printing was born in China but the old joke about a Chinese typewriter needing a two metre wide keyboard was in play. In the Islamic world the scribes were king and printing looked to take the bread from their mouths and the text is far more complex. In Europe with around thirty letters you could print pretty much anything in most of the languages. Another was glass. European ceramics were way behind Chinese and their porcelain, but we had glass instead. Porcelain is great, but you can't make lenses from it. Lenses which help people stay informed and useful as their eyes age, lenses that can build telescopes and microscopes etc and all that brings with it.

    Add in easy and extensive sea routes and loads of navigable rivers and a temporate climate in most of Europe and it was pretty much inevitable that Europe would become a, if not the world superpower. The British had the largest empire in history, now on top of the pink of the maps back then add in the Dutch, the French, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Belgian, even the Russian which is still the largest nation on Earth and outside of China(and even then for a time) the World was a European empire.

    Then post WW2 that all faded away and America a European colony took over, alongside the Soviet Union, a European empire pointing armageddon at each other. While the Chinese looked on thinking oh FFS not these round eyed pricks again. Just mostly ignore them and maybe they'll feck off. 😁 A position they largely still work by, though are no doubt pinching themselves that the West made them their manufacturing base... Africa for the most part was WTF just happened? The Middle East was WTF is happening?

    But I digress... 😊😁

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    I see Le Pen want's to cut off arms to Ukraine too, along with our two.

    I guess one of those strange situations where those on the left and the right want the same things. Then again, at least we know Le Pen has been funded by Russian banks.

    https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-marine-le-pen-macron-moscow-d79b5ddd4fe93ebef39da900d99b22da



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    the left right thing is a bit of a distraction with people like that ,

    its just self serving greed and infantile attention seeking really



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    At what point have i defended actions of russia/putin



    Deal in facts & logic,not your rather depraved imagination



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Her central core that increased diplomacy & dialogue will be what ends this war,is essentially true.....the fact people get abused/demonised for commonsense points of view,is perlplexing


    She may be a gowl,but not entirely wrong...lads jumping up and down demanding sanctions,fcuk diplomats out etc,

    while at same time,cool off on giving proper assistance to ukraine in terms of arms/air assistance for fear of nuclear war,seems to me,speaking out both sides of the mouth,while ukrainins get slaughtered.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Her central core that increased diplomacy & dialogue will be what ends this war,is essentially true

    No, it is completely and utterly false. False to its very core.

    Russia quite clearly has no interest in diplomacy. They have made this abundantly clear. This ends in Ukrainian capitulation or Russian acceptance that their goals are militarily impossible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭MFPM


    Unlikely that Ukraine will capitulate and unlikely Russia get the military victory they wanted, now maybe they do a runner as the US did in Vietnam but overwhelming likely that this war will be resolved through some form of dialogue and negotiations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,733 ✭✭✭✭briany


    What she misses is that diplomacy itself won't end a war where the two sides are too far apart in their national policy. In this case, something has to force one or both sides to be more amenable so that the diplomatic end can make progress.

    Furthermore, judging by that speech she made in the EUP a few days ago, she seems to be of the opinion that we should just 'let nature take its course' and are only prolonging the inevitable by supplying weapons to Ukraine. This is incredibly arrogant and could make no one wonder why Daly has been called a Russian shill. It belittles the right of Ukraine to defend itself, and in defending itself to ask for help and to get that help.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But the keeping diplomatic channels open and increasing it,particularly in war time.is meritable,if it stops a single missicle or massacre,its surely worth it??


    The dripfeed of help/sanctions is fundamentally too slow,either escalate it to full limits,face down nuclear threat,but this war could drag on years and leave millions innocent dead at current rate of progress


    The all out attack from media,whom done same to john hume,for talking with adams (some of vilist stuff said about him at time,bears testamont to our establishment class,most of whom still hold promenice here)....while simutaneously expect us all to forget,when they laud him correct decades later



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Which will only come about if Russia accepts that they can not succeed militarily. Nothing will start before that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭MFPM


    But you now do accept that negotiations are likely at some point and not 'No, it is completely and utterly false. False to its very core' that you stated earlier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭MFPM


    It seems 55% of Irish people agree with her on sending arms to Ukraine and 66% with her on Irish military neutrality.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Negotiations are not what will end the war, Russia being defeated on the battlefield (not necessarily driven out of Ukraine, but reaching the point they can achieve no military goal) is what will end it. Ukraine can not and will not agree to any of Russia's actual demands.

    Negotiations may happen at the end of the war, but they are not what will end it. Its not just semantics - they could talk til the cows come home at the moment and it won't accomplish a thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Nice use of deliberately presenting info as misleading.

    55% of Irish people agreed that Ireland should not directly send military weapons to Ukraine.

    55% of Irish people absolutely did not agree that weapons should not be sent to Ukraine full stop as advocated by Daly - that question was not asked.

    Furthermore 70% said they support tougher sanctions against Russia, starkly at odds with Dalys position.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So the Bully Russia should win?

    As its the aggressor, that's the only outcome if she doesn't fully withdraw from where she's not wanted

    She wins territory via invasion in the 21st century

    Have you absolutely no self awareness at all as a SF supporter on here?,assuming you believe the 6 counties are occupied



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Where anywhere have i said russia should win?

    I have no bother calling for military escalation and proper help to ukrainines to defend their country,not this pricking about with sanctions


    while also agreeing with her as regards increased diplomacy/peace efforts,and ultimaely this war being resolved in a room somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭Homelander


    But how does it make sense; a view that there should be no arms, but pure diplomacy, when dealing with someone like Putin.

    If there were no sanctions or military aid; if Russias economy wasn't hurting and it wasn't taking a massive mauling in Ukraine; what would diplomacy even result in?

    Putin's invasion had one clear aim - decapitation of Government, installation of puppet subservient to Moscow and removal of opposition - basically render Ukraine as a satellite state devoid of leadership or identity separate from Russia.

    Talking about diplomacy being the sole answer is absolute horse manure of the highest degree.

    The fact that Ukraine has fought valiantly and given Russia an unimaginable hiding only tenfold increases their diplomacy power.

    Ukraine wants a diplomatic solution as much as anyone....just not one that basically amounts to "hand over your country or we will destroy you".

    Anyone who believes that diplomacy alone is the path forward, and sanctions and military aid shouldn't have happened, is living in another galaxy altogether.

    What Clare Daly is basically saying is Ukraine should just bend over the table and give Russia everything it wants and just sign the country away. She's a contrarian nutjob with zero credibility, who, like the rest of them, is obsessed with what the US is up to and has made it her core identity.... and has zero consistency for that matter.

    I was indifferent to her ramblings before but her and the likes of Paul Murphy who turn everything into "But NATO" and "But the US" and other nonsensical whataboutery sicken me at this point.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you think diplomacy will get them out of Donbas and Crimea?

    Laughable if you do

    Ergo you are advocating a win for Russia



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    What's the time limit? When would the people in Donbas and Crimea move from freedom fighters to terrorists? After a faux statelet overseen by Moscow is set up? Just curious. There are people live there now consider themselves Russian.



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