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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The article doesn't say three pink lions entered the bar shortly afterwards and took photographs, so by your weird logic it should be considered entirely possible they did.

    When reading accounts like this written by journalists, the logical assumption would be that events happened as reported and that the most important and relevant were included.

    Since the article didn't state that the police were called, which would be highly relevant to an incident of this nature, i'ts logical to assume they weren't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And so, the monster starts to devour itself.......☺️



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    strategic bombers starting runs the last 2 days, sign they are going to carpet bomb the place like they did in Syria...

    Be interesting if Ukraine and get anti assets close, although I think that would just be an excuse for Putin to hit the nuke button.



  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭technocrat


    We have seen large scale revolutions previously in similar dictator run countries take Libya for example.

    The younger Russians could orchestrate protests using social media if they felt that strongly but alas..



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,968 ✭✭✭Big Ears


    The fact that protesting could lead to you doing 15 years in prison has a large part to do with that.

    If not for the police clampdown on protesters I wouldn't be surprised if it had reached massive numbers. But right from the early days of protest, a very high percentage were getting arrested, and inevitably that was massive factor putting others off of joining in.

    It's not the same as someone protesting in Dublin, it comes with very serious consequences for yourself to do so.



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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I wouldn't be going to so far as to tar them all with the same brush but there's an issue with Russia in that it never developed like Europe did, or America, or even much of Asia. The power structures and dynamics since the Tsar's day are somewhat nebulous and hard to pin down how they worked. Under the Tsars it was serfdom, locals held power that wasn't official. It's too big to rule effectively, let alone 100+ years ago. The local gangs controlled a lot. Once the Tsar was gone the state basically became the biggest terrorist organisation in history. When you consider the confiscations, arrests, deportations, torture, murders, forced famines, I only came to the realisation last night. 😅 So there was the party which was glorified terrorism but with little bureaucratic competence, there were the criminal gangs who controlled what was actually around. Finally "communism" is gone and yeah, the money all just went to the criminals again, but this time they basically are the party.

    We're looking at a country that has had a brain drain for over a century. A culture isn't unaffected by that. When I heard the Neptune rockets had some Ukrainian background it got me thinking "A lot of soviet stuff was made in the satelite countries". Which I think is more or less true. Even most of the "successful" industry during the Soviet days came out of other countries than Russia. Honestly I think a part of it is the culture in the likes of central Europe being much more developed, collaborative etc. which allows for innovation. I was watching a fictional show and it was mentioned someone was a camp prison guard. It's important to remember just how long people were told "You're going to be a prison guard" and you could either do it or be locked up yourself and maybe your family will be targetted.

    I was thinking about the differences in how Russia "colonise" its land compared to, as an example, US/Canada. The Russians abduct people and send them somewhere they have no links to to fend for themselves. In the US and Canada they open oil rigs, pay people handsomely for the rough as **** work, all the support staff get paid, money flows around. Does too much go to shareholders? IMO, yes. But it's just a completely different way of doing things. Hell, even just look at the Brits with the North Sea oil and gas. Thousands of people have made lucrative careers by sheer hard work in a tough environment. Many more will have looked at it and thought "Nah, wouldn't fancy those hours/travel". Are people paid will on rigs in Russia? Course some are. But a lot of them will also happen to be Western technicians or Western-trained. It's not the default attitude. Hell, move to Alaska and the government will straight up give you money for staying there. 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That was led by religious factions that had a structure going back years, IIRC. It also had Western support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,399 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




    I wouldn't call it a"bluff". More to have as an excuse or justification for the aftermath - "Well we gave them the chance to surrender and they wouldn't that is why we ended up having to kill them all in fighting" .... like the lads on the bikes or the people in civilian clothes shot in the back of the head with their hands tied behind their backs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,714 ✭✭✭✭briany


    There is room for nuance in the sense that I certainly don't believe all Russians are bad and I sympathise very much with Russians in Russia who are against this war but are fearful of expressing that.

    On the other hand, Russians who are openly supportive of Russia's invasion, especially those living in the West with free access to non-Russian media, I have absolutely no time for, and Russian soldiers participating in the invasion who get killed, I have no sympathy for. The only problem I have with those calling the latter 'orcs' is it's too weak a word, but more suitable ones are currently against boards.ie T&Cs to show unadorned.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,399 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I think that the effectiveness of social media protests was greatly diminished when youtube removed the "thumbs down" count. If that hadn't been done, Putin would have left ages ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭technocrat


    I was referring to messaging apps like Telegram etc.

    But you knew that already so your attempt at humour has backfired.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,908 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Somethings going down in the neighborhood.


    I believe the DNR 'seperatist' leader was arrested yesterday by the fsb. Might be related or simply conscripts trying to fight back.





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭zv2


    I guess in calmer moments, away from the screen, most reasonable people will admit that many Russians are decent people, but their official war policy is mass murder, rape and absolute barbarity. Their behavior in Ukraine is monstrous and I can certainly forgive people for calling them Orcs. No doubt there are war crimes in every war but Russia has a reputation for being especially nasty.

    Post edited by zv2 on

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interesting. Separists might be thinking... go with the suddenly not so mighty Russia or stay with the frigging €€€€€ EU bound Ukraine and had an about turn on the whole Mother Russia thing.

    Also, can imagine Russian troops lording it over locals and may even get a bit rapey. Careful what you wish for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,399 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I beg your pardon. I'll have you know it was a serious analysis of the intersection between tech, propaganda, and political power.

    The Putster is all about "the likes". Why else do you think he does be so mad for getting the photos of himself shirtless on horseback etc? Clicks = dollars money cash baby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    No its not a cop-out. From birth, they are indoctrinated into the system, step out of line, and you will pay the price. Any , ( even perceived ) deviation, never mind full blown protests, are met head on with brute force. You will have seen it before, when there were protests about Putin rigging elections etc. What else do you expect when the country is ruled by thug? Maybe at some point it will reach critical mass ( especially if the military mutiny ) but we are not there yet. Would not surprise me if Putin sent his police / military to shoot his own people if the protests threatened him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    he only problem I have with those calling the latter 'orcs' is it's too weak a word

    Yeah surely uruk-hai at least




  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "There is new evidence of the atrocities of the occupiers against the civilian population, the Rashists admit that they are shooting Ukrainian women closely. They do this with special cynicism, releasing several bullets even in the breathless body of their victims.

    The SBU intercepts such conversations of the invaders and documents their crimes – so that in the future no one guilty will go unpunished.

    This "hero", who was mobilized by the Russians in the so-called "LNR", tells his friend about the brutal murder of a Ukrainian woman by his colleagues: "...there is some woman lying there, ...her head shot out, lying there, twitching. There was a hole in her head... They called for more, he shot her again, she was still twitching, he shot her again... That's it, I said, she was fucked".

    As it turned out, the wife's only fault was that "...she had, like, a brother in Azov, and she started talking some bullsh*t.

    The soldier allegedly resents the behavior of his fellow soldiers, but in no way prevented this war crime. Only advised at least to bury the murdered.

    This is what Russian "mastery" really looks like!"


    Due to sovereignty issues, it's seems clear that all these war crimes will go unpunished, despite all the toothless blather about being held to account, brought to justice and trials. I'ts all a load of impotent nonsense as Russia will never hand anyone over.

    It was suggested a countries funds, if frozen, are legally immune from later seizure. Whatever international law that enables that immunity needs to be changed so that all Russia's foreign assets are fair game for reparations and to be held hostage to be used as incentive for the handover of individuals wanted for war crimes prossecution. Something like a €100m fine from frozen funds for each person not extradited when asked for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    When Russia get control of Maurupiol who’s going to rebuild and pay for it???



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes Russia was different in being an empire rather than a country like say Holland and because of that her development was different, but it most certainly developed. It was ruled like an empire with an emperor at the top, a layer of lords, religious clerics and regional governors below them and it was ruled pretty effectively, or effectively enough to funnel taxes back to Moscow and to get at least some of that back out to the provinces. Soviet times just continued that trend, though far more effectively and across a much larger area.

    As for innovation they had enough. They were the early leaders in the space race for a start and were able to do so with a significantly smaller team and very little outside tech and help. America had the whole Free World resources and relied far more on nazi German scientists. The USSR did initially but got shot of them pretty quickly, either by throwing them into prison or sending them back to Germany and didn't turn them into national heroes with a whitewashed past like the Americans did.

    They also turned what had been an agrarian society with little infrastructure beyond the cities in the west and importing most of it's tech into a far more industrialised nation developing it internally. Enough to get an atomic weapons programme off the drawing board. Again it's easy to forget that unlike nations in the West they were essentially "on their own", an internal state. They had to make their own pretty much everything. They developed and expanded the largest rail network on the planet and did it remarkably quickly and it was all built within their borders. The BAM line which is over 4000kms across all sorts of terrain including permafrost and perpetual swamp much of it completed in a decade and fully completed in two was an incredible feat of engineering. The clothes you wore, the car you drove(if you were lucky) the telly, the films you watched, all your household items, pretty much everything you interacted with as a Soviet citizen was made by other Soviet citizens. Same for their internal and external air travel. They built a "world" within their borders. Was it always of the best quality? No, but it tended to be reliable and a lot cheaper. Regardless that's impressive by any measure.

    BTW if you're reading this on a phone, pad or laptop, the LED was invented by a Russian/Soviet scientist.

    Post edited by Wibbs on

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭zv2


    If I remember correctly the Oligarch's money is being set aside for that...

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Common sense .

    And add the fact Nato assets have been operating with transponders off which try don't appear on any publicly available app ,

    But , but ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Ukrainians have been reporting that in those areas, the Russians have been forcibly conscripting all males they can find, including children, the over 65, invalids and handicapped, and sticking AK-47s in their hands, and one presumes, another in their backs.

    I have been rather wondering why some of these don't frag their Russian overlords. Perhaps this might be related to unhappy conscripts.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's unlikely the Russian military will. Autocrats are always paranoid about the military(even when they come from them) as they're the only force that can effectively take over a country, or their OK is required if someone else does. The Tsar was a dead man walking the moment his military stopped backing him. Since Stalin every subsequent Russian leader has on the one hand thrown lots of cash at the military, on the other chopped the heads off any generals that stood out above the rest and became popular and blaming the military for screwups. It's why Stalin was in trouble when Germany invaded. He had few good generals left as they'd been bumped off and replaced by loyal political appointees. Zhukov was one of those few left who saved the day and was lauded as a hero, until after the war when he was sent to the provinces, stripped of his commands and accused of anti Soviet stuff on trumped up charges. Too popular to kill, too popular to have too close to the throne.

    Putin will have done similar. Even in this war he's been arresting generals. Putting the blame on them for the military's failures and keeping the stink from hime. Failures which are built in from the ground up, failures that in peacetime are seen as positives for the rulling class and the autocrat at the top. So it's not great wonder that they've been shown up as decidely lacklustre.

    Democracies generally have much better militaries, because democracies don't fear them to nearly the same degree. I suspect if China's military were tested in a real world conflict against anything like a decent force they'd be shown to be just as lacking as the Russians. China's emperors have taken a very similar tack to Russian Czars with their military and for similar reasons.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Have you known any Russians or Soviet bloc citizens who grew up in the 60's and 70's? I think they'd have issue with your 'reliable and a lot cheaper.' Ladas were junk as were Pobodas. My old friends are always amused to see photos of them in use in places like Cuba (old ones), held together with spit and bailing wire, like in Russia. Also, there were bread lines and extreme privation by western standards (e.g., 1 toilet base in an apartment building with everyone having their own family seats that they brought with them.)

    And, you do have to ask exactly how the laborers on the Soviet-era public projects were compensated and how many were compelled to labor.

    A good friend who was from Moldova told me the first time they got to leave and go to the Czech republic, they were stunned by the availability of food, clothing, basic staples like toilet paper. They really did use copies of Pravda in the loo. To this day, he can't stand the smell of coconut because of cheap Cuban laundry soap scented with coconuts that was all that was available growing up. It's also obvious he was malnourished as a kid, too.

    Out of choice, the Soviet union compelled this onto their population. They were isolated because their leadership was happy with it. Their people suffered by design, just like under the Tsars. "Animal Farm" is a pretty accurate allegory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's likely down to the fear of what happens when they do kill one of their masters from Moscow, there's been a few who's cars exploded with them in it when they disagreed with Moscow ,if you followed this since they first turned up in eastern Ukraine,the first things they did was Park command and control vehicles along with artillery and tanks beside apartment blocks and densely populated areas,and they don't have a clear majority of the population on their side either,

    If they stand up the Russians will massacre them



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭ZX7R


    I regularly see black Hawks fly into the Ukraine.

    They never show up on flight radar.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,059 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    In the normal course of events the public can and will jump on one bandwagon or another. The current situation is somewhat different in that it's a particularly singular event that threatens the peace and stability of Europe, has & will have an impact on every citizens life.

    It's why the likes of my grandfathers and uncles found themselves enlisting in previous European conflicts. To do what they believed needed to be done.

    So don't belittle the public reaction to this. There is little doubt in my mind that if Putin were not waving his Nuke threat around, that this war would have dragged in other states already. There is something fundamentally amiss with European and world geo politics when one major player just decides to invade a large neighbouring state. The whole rationale for the UN is drawn into question. The order of things as understood since 1945 is up in the air.

    Ultimately Europe has a choice, to vacillate and throw sympathy to Ukraine and keep Russia sweet at a distance or throw itself into full backing for the right of Ukraine to exist as an independent democratic state. There appears to be a lack of real leadership and decision making in the EU. Leaving Ukraine in some sort of half way limbo with partial sanctions and lower grade weapon supplies is morally corrupt. Europe needs to jump one way or another - facilitate a full takeover by Russia or drive them out.



This discussion has been closed.
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