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Boards.ie Stats - January 2022

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,471 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    How could they end up being fired?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    So, classic GDPR vagueness wins again.

    • Here's a fun thing.
    • GDPR!! You can see personal data.
    • Well we're not sure it's breaking the rules, TBH. It's just some public metrics collated.
    • Not sure eh? Then it's definitely GDPR breakage!!
    • It probably isn't, honest. Ok ok, we'll pull the fun thing.

    Thank god folks are here to protect us from the peril of knowing how popular Boards is. We wouldn't want that. Never let pragmatism get in the way of a paranoid abstract.

    The lack of clarity on this otherwise well meaning legislation has been a pox on these scenarios. Nobody wins, except maybe those who think this entire segue was some egregious imperilment of privacy. It isn't, but hey ho.

    Was quite looking forward to February's stats - fúck knows Boards is constantly declared dead and buried so I was delighted to see @Boards.ie: Odhran put some stats forward to counter this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Because their employer sees that they’ve been spending eight hours a day arguing about GDPR on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You don’t need to reveal personal data to show how popular Boards.ie is. You could present that same list with user details anonymised to show how popular boards is. That’s what happens when you start doing security by design. You start thinking about the purpose of information (to show how popular boards is) and how to achieve this purpose without breaching confidentiality.

    GDPR is no pox on these scenarios. Sloppy management of information is the pox on these scenarios.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Considering not a single post in this thread has presented any kind of definitive, legal, silver bullet as to whether this is 100% a GDPR issue - ultimately twisting Boards' arms out of JustInCase'ness - then yes. I absolutely call any law vague enough to create these ludicrous scenarios a pox. At best a headache. Akin to the scenarios where conferences hide name badges at the front table cos nobody's sure, not realllly - but better to be paranoid then sued.

    This result here is because of fuss, not facts.

    And no, anonymous lists do not address an initiative explicitly trying to inject a little more community spirit through user metrics. It runs counter the idea of bringing people together. Our top user was RedactedUser4255 - oh wow, what fun we're all having. Please. I can't respect that as a serious suggestion.

    And if you're posting in work to the degree you made a top 10 list for the month? Boards isn't the flaw here. Maybe your boss isn't keeping you busy enough, or you should do your job 😜 (and yes that's a joke, I've posted during work hours enough not to be serious in the above)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you want a definitive legal silver buller, you can go pay a lawyer €400 an hour to produce one for you. There’s nothing unusual about that, of course. It happens in traffic law, tax law, contract law , IP law. No law can cover every possible scenario. GDPR is no different to other bodies of law.

    Dunno what the conference issue you mention was all about, but it sounds like something that could easily be sorted with clear consent.


    Interesting to see you moving the goalposts on the purpose of the top ten list from “show how popular” to “bringing people together”; two very different things. That’s exactly the kind of thinking that GDPR drives; being clear about purpose.


    Doesnt really matter where the flaw lies. It’s not a good idea for Boards to be publishing information that could get people fired, or get them divorced, or get them kicked out of their party. If boards really, really thinks that it IS a good idea to publish this info, then it just has to get consent. No biggie, no drama.


    If you still think GDPR is a pox, have a look at what happens without GDPR - where anyone can buy the data to track YOUR movements, day or night.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I'm not moving any goalposts for goodness sake; the thread can have served many purposes, be it community engagement, reporting back user swings, whatever Odhrans motivations were, I was spitballing. The couple mentioned are not mutually exclusive motives.

    And I never claimed I'm against the GDPR so don't need proof of its efficacy. My opening post called it well meaning. It is an important piece of legislation in our modern world, one that protects people's privacy - but it's lack of clarity in the face of our ever expanding digital lives enables exactly these vague scenarios of bollix, ones where there's enough confusion to worry companies into pulling innocent initiatives because nobody's sure. Not without paying a lot of money? Not exactly a ringing endorsement of a piece of law for our mundane lives that it requires legal experts on each specific everyday scenarios. If it requires expert analysis to parse a circumstance that's a patent failure.

    Your analogy doesn't track because traffic law (for instance) IS well codified by the inherent limitations of its physical environment. There's a ceiling of circumstances the law needs to allow for. Where new advances appear, such as E scooters as we're seeing ATM, the law catches up - but there's no sea change at play given its just a other mode of transport pending legal distinction. Similar with accountancy, while I doubt you'll find many exemptions in tax law to the extent "Personal data" can cause, being as it is a gigantic piece of knotted string.

    Look. you got your wish. Our "personal data" is protected from being totted up and exposed, hooray. I think it's paranoia or digital hypochondria in claiming equivalennce to egregious offences, but nothing I day will bring it back.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,471 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    But hasn't it always been the case that you could see individual post counts and things like posts per day here for users since the very beginning. I don't really see how a top ten list is such a drastic departure from that. In actual fact it used to be far easier to search and work out exactly how much posting a particular user had been doing since they'd joined the site - it's possible still, but much more of a pain in the arse because boards is broken, even the feature of "posts per day" has dissapeared, as far as I can see.

    I honestly think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,043 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    Really? In my experience it's usually the opposite - an email or a linkedin message from the person who has left GadgetCompany going "Hi Tauren, this is Bob, hope you're keeping well, just to let you know I've moved recently to an exciting new role in RivalGadgetCompany and I'd be delighted to talk to you about our innovative range of products!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,043 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Meant to say, thanks for this. I think it's the right decision.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Go through the cycling forum and you’ll find loads of intense discussions around the fine details of traffic law. Lack of clarity isn’t unusual at all. There was intense discussions over the presence or absence of a comma in the law on mandatory cycle lanes.

    And let’s face it, none of us are experts here, so a little confusion is no surprise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The argument of “we’ve always done it this way “ doesn’t really stand up. It doesn’t matter what we’ve always done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭purplefields


    This will probably be what ends up closing Boards down - not software updates or user count.

    Compliance.

    You mentioned a €400/hour price tag just to see if they are compliant. Lovely. Just the overhead they need. This is the real enemy.

    If people were really concerned about GDPR and privacy, they wouldn't post on Boards. They certainly wouldn't put their real name where it says 'Username'. (Other people really are hell!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The alternative to paying for expensive lawyers is to not publish information about your users where you don’t have a legal basis and you haven’t covered it in your privacy policy. It’s not a terribly high bar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭purplefields


    An alternative is just to shut the site down because it's too expensive to run. That's what I'd do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭ShatterProof


    So have we cleared up the fact that it is not a GDPR issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,399 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The one man crusade continues, you heroic champion of the mythical eejit who gets fired because his boss figured out he was spending all day at work on social media instead of doing his job.

    I'm so glad of the protection your pedantry offers and will be delighted when Boards gets shut down because any bit of joy is sucked out of it by unpaid bureaucrats with nothing else to be worried about



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Some awful nosey feckers around here.

    See if you can join the dots and see who is actually protecting Boards from being shut down.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,399 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    It's clearly you. I know the word Hero is bandied about a bit too much these days, but forget the Ukranian resistance fighters and aid workers you are the true hero. Bless you



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,815 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Mod: Both @AndrewJRenko and @Akrasia knock it off. First and only warning.



  • Boards.ie Employee Posts: 148 ✭✭✭✭✭Boards.ie: Odhran
    Boards.ie Employee


    All - as posted perviously we sought advice on this matter. The outcome of that is that they agree with our position - ie this is not a GDPR breach. There was a detailed review and reply sent through from a specialist GDPR law practitioner.

    Background:

    In January 2022, Boards.ie began sharing certain site usage KPI’s to demonstrate to users the level of traffic on, and contribution to, the forum, and growth of users since the recent platform migration. As part of the KPI’s, Boards.ie compiled a list of Top 10 contributors for that month (i.e. the List).

    An issue was raised by a user regarding ones appearance on the List suggesting that the creation of the List amounted to a breach of GDPR (data protection) rights because:

    • They had not consented to appearing on such a list.
    • The information necessary to compile the List would otherwise be a difficult undertaking for another individual or entity to assemble and, whilst the processing carried out by Boards.ie to create the List was on publicly available data, it still amounted to a breach of users ‘GDPR’ rights as users identified on the List might not welcome attention drawn to the fact of their appearance on it from spouse, family members, or work colleagues.

    The right to how Boards.ie processes data is contained in the Terms of Service and Privacy Notice. The Terms of Service that all registered users must sign up to clearly states that “..by posting any Material on or through Boards.ie you grant Boards Software Limited a limited licence to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Material”. The Privacy Notice also states that “we will keep a record of your posting history” and that “we collect information which you post on Boards.ie and information relating to your use of Boards generally”. This explains to users that that postings by users will be counted, and those postings may be re-used and publicly displayed by Boards.ie in providing its service.

    In saying that, we believe that the language in the Privacy Notice could be a little clearer in that regard and should be amended accordingly for the avoidance of doubt which we will undertake.

    Considering Article 6 of the GDPR and the question of whether the processing of the data (counting users’ posts and displaying the number of posts) is justified and reasonable. This is known as the legal basis for the processing. Article 6 of the GDPR sets out the legal bases which includes, amongst others, (i) processing necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party and (ii) processing necessary for the legitimate purposes pursued by the data controller except where such interests are overridden by the interests or fundamental rights and freedoms of the data subject, which require protection of personal data. Both these legal bases are stated in the Privacy Notice, as well as compliance with legal obligations. Of these bases, we believe the legitimate interest basis is most relevant.

    Counting posts and publishing the number, date and times of posts serves a purpose (legitimate interest). It enhances the users experience and lends a certain credence and gravitas to users. It creates a hierarchical structure within users. It has minimal impact on privacy, as users use and are encouraged to use pseudo anonymous handles, and it is a common feature of online discussion forum. It encourages use of the forum and generates greater traffic.

    The question then becomes whether the data subject could reasonably expect their personal data to be used in this manner. As stated above, users of online forum reasonably expect there to be publicly displayed analytics regarding their postings such as the number, date and time of their posts, as well as the history of posts made by the user. We are not aware if such Top 10 user Lists are commonly used on other forums but in this instance it is just presenting analytics already displayed in a more modular form. This may be novel but it is a reasonably expected use of the analytics in the context of the users relationship with Boards.ie.

    Now the balancing test must be applied - does the interests, rights and fundamental freedoms of the data subjects (users) override the legitimate interests of Boards.ie to process the personal data so. The user in this instance cite concerns about spouses, work colleagues and family members noting the intense level of posting which would not be otherwise discernible. Presumably, they fear that such focused analytics exposes them to criticism and potential damage to relationships as a result – it is a privacy concern.

    A common-sense approach must be taken and context is important. Our belief is that the list in this instance did not cause unjustified harm to a user, especially where the overall history of the user is already on public display. In the main, identification as a top poster would normally be seen as a badge of honour and a goal to be achieved within the context of users of the forum. Privacy concerns have already been addressed somewhat by encouraging users to use pseudo anonymous usernames. Spouse, family member or work colleague would have to know the user’s pseudo anonymous handle, which could only be provided by the user. Also, the List only appears on a particular ‘Stats’ thread, which the spouse, family member or work colleague would have to locate. Notwithstanding the need for the spouse etc to know the true identity of the user and find that particular thread, a general guide to the level of posting by a user could also be achieved by just periodically checking the user’s profile from time to time to see by how much his total posting since registration has increased during that period. Therefore, the issue which is really of most concern to the user in this instance is identification as a top poster compared to other users.

    We believe that the main damage to such relationships (spouse, family member, work colleague) is caused by the general level of monthly posting, which which could be discerned easily through periodic checking of the user profile. To be damaging, the level of posting would have to be ‘unreasonable’ and what is a ‘reasonable’ level of posting can only be determined by comparing the activity of the user to a non-user, rather than other users. Therefore, it is our view that the privacy concern raised is somewhat misplaced and that recognition as a top poster compared to other users on the Site is somewhat irrelevant. 

    In conclusion:

    We do not consider the use of the Top Ten Monthly Posters List to be in breach of the GDPR or Data Protection Law.

    However, our Privacy Policy could be a little clearer regarding such use of personal data which we will update.

    For now unfortunately we will not be publishing any further statistics about Boards.ie publicly - including the top ten list. While there is no breach per above - our focus is trying to keep Boards.ie alive which needs all of our attention ... especially financially.



  • Posts: 864 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In that case, delete my account.



  • Boards.ie Employee Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭✭Boards.ie: Niamh
    Boards.ie Community Manager


    If would like your account deleted, please PM @Boards.ie: GDPR or email datarequests@boards.ie to make a formal request. Thanks.



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