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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    It is incredible that we wouldn't join NATO because Britain was in it yet we ask and rely on their help for defence. The most idiotic arrangement ever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    That arrangement suits Britain fine. They have full military access to Irish airspace if required and do not have to worry about us as a threat to them.

    The reality is Russia or China will never be a threat to us. The last time this country was under a credible threat of invasion was probably 1940 when Britain was contemplating invasion. If we are ever invaded again who else will it be only our neighbour to the East either to subjugate us again or to invade us for their own protection from some other force.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Times have changed and that sort of thinking was thrown out the window 2 months ago.

    We simply cannot base our defence on another country, one that isn't even in the EU. We are big boys now and it's about time we invest in the military and actually become some semblance of a capable army.

    I've no idea what it is with people being totally ok living in a country that can't defend its own people



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Mod note:

    Countries joining or considering joining NATO in response to Ukraine war is on topic.

    Whether Ireland should join NATO generally is not. There are other threads on this topic or a new one can be started.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I agree except that the part that Russian would never be a threat. It might seek to take certain airports/harbours if invading Europe/UK. Unlikely but possible. I read somewhere that in the cold war a few nuclear missiles would have been aimed at us (Shannon) and others.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Is there any recent info on the survivors of the Moskva?



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Topic is Ukraine not China



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,118 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    There appears to be a bit of a lull at the moment. Apparently there has been a lot of rain in the East of Ukraine and the thinking is that that will delay any major offensive by the Russians (since they will need to stick to the roads).

    There has been a small bit of movement on the front-lines. Apparently the Ukrainians mounted a counter-offensive just south of Kharkiv yesterday and liberated some villages but then I saw that today that further south, the Russians captured a town, Kremina, which is just a few km from the key city of Sievierodonetsk.

    On the other side of the Donbas Russian troops are still being held up trying to extinguish the final Ukrainian resistance in Mariupol which apparently now is down to just the sprawling Azov steel plant




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    It's probably very far from a new type of propaganda, but we've seen it used a lot over the last decade. The more narratives there are, the harder it becomes to establish the truth. If you give one version of a story, your opponent gives another, and then 6 associates of yours each provide a different version of story, all of the stories will be called "fake news" by the others. And then suddenly you have introduced a false equivalency into it. Even if your version is total bull, it's still six against one when it comes to your opponent's story. They can't all be wrong, can they?

    It's the, "I'm spartacus" approach to disinformation. When you've got two stories, the truth is easy to spot. When you've got twenty of them, the truth is a lost cause.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,118 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    This is known as "muddying the waters" and the Russians especially love it as a technique. They don't care if their stories are consistent. The real enemy for them is any kind of obvious and objective truth. If people cannot agree what is true then anything can be true which means that nothing is true. The authorities can then just create whatever truth they want and a certain percentage of the population will believe it and not worry about supporting evidence or logic.

    The thing about this technique is that eventually when the lies accumulate they tend to collapse under their own weight. This is often after some avoidable disaster that was caused by a series of lies compounding to make the issue exponentially worse. The Chernobyl disaster was a good example of this in the late Soviet era. In years to come we may look back at the decision to invade Ukraine as something similar for the Putin era.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭eire4


    The fact that before the invasion the Russians were intending to send war ships to do "exercises" off our coast should have been enough of a wake up call for ourselves. I would also add that it is utterly selfish as well on our part to not stand up and play a role not just in our own security but that of Europe collectively. We are part of the EU after all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    All kinds of authoritarian-lovers-including some of the MAGA crowd-are fond of it. Steve Bannon called it ''flooding the zone with sh1t''



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,476 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    I often wonder were they going interfering with underwater sea cables?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Thread traffic has slowed down a lot, as expected. This is the first post in 15 hours.

    Final soldiers left in Mariupol. I really don't see what is gained by not surrendering. Easy for lads sitting in safe houses to say not to do it but if that was me I'd be laying down the arms. The Ukrainian living in Ireland who was killed will get plaudits for a few days and then he'll be forgotten about. Kids without a father.

    Wonder why Zelensky is going for a beard. He's keeping it trimmed too. He should get his barber to shave it off, he looks better without one. I'm surprised he's still getting such regular haircuts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The Mariupol fighters know they are tying up several Russian battle groups, plus it's a big "**** you" to Putin and a symbol of the country's resistance. You've repeatedly claimed you would instantly surrender to all this and live under the Russian jackboot but apparently most Ukrainians don't share that view. Nor your concern about Zelensky's beard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    So they tie up a Russian battle group. And then what? Other soldiers were in the same situation last week in Mariupol. Now they have bullets in their head.

    Lambs to the slaughter. Wouldn't be for me.

    Most Ukrainians wouldn't share that view? How many have left the country? Banning men aged 18-60 from leaving?

    I'm still waiting for this pathetic Russian army to collapse by the way. I heard weeks ago that they're pathetic, no morale, hungry, cold etc. Yet it's Zelensky who's already received hundreds of millions worth of weapons who is still begging for more.

    Lose the battle and win the war. They're going to lose the battle anyways.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,353 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    At least provide something resembling stats or polls to speculate about what the Ukrainian hunger for war is, instead of blathering about it's President's personal grooming: maybe when faced with an existential crisis, and a hostile power who literally doesn't acknowledge your right to exist as a free country - but rather some lapsed set of Russians yearning for Moscow - one's stomach for war is hardened. Either Ukraine fights, or Ukraine is no more; it's a fairly simple rationale.

    All I can say, and is based on the single Ukranian work colleague, currently living with his parents in the West of the country after fleeing Kyiv? While he can't leave because of the ban on men leaving the country, when asked he said plainly that if it came to a draft, he'd fight for his country. Not exactly statistically valid but more than just your own personal itching on the back of your palms.

    Fight to a score draw or Ukraine ceases to be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    A relatively small group of Ukrainians are tying up multiple Russian battlegroups. Groups that could now be fighting in the East. Also, Mariupol is the critical final piece of that land bridge between Crimea and Russia, it's strategically very important to the Russians.

    It's an incredible feat of fighting and heroism that the Ukrainians have held out there for so long.

    The vast majority of Ukrainians don't share your views, in a country of 44 million most remain, polls show they are strongly against Russian occupation and in strong support of Zelensky.

    "I'm still waiting for this pathetic Russian army to collapse by the way. I heard weeks ago that they're pathetic, no morale, hungry, cold etc. Yet it's Zelensky who's already received hundreds of millions worth of weapons who is still begging for more."

    Odd views. It's the second or third largest military in the world. Just because many of their soldiers have low morale and they have logistical issues doesn't mean they aren't potent. What the Ukrainians are receiving is still just a fraction of the equipment their occupiers have.

    Of course Zelensky is asking for more, he needs more. Hundreds of millions is nothing, one fighter jet costs around 30 to 40 million (higher for more advanced), the Russians have thousands of fixed wing aircraft. What the Ukrainians are currently doing is extraordinary.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,904 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Why do you think your army is pathetic? I'm not aware of you admitting this before now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭Economics101


    You reference to Zelinski's beard and haircuts are really quite a ridiculous diversion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Of course Zelensky is asking for more, he needs more. Hundreds of millions is nothing, one fighter jet costs around 30 to 40 million (higher for more advanced), the Russians have thousands of fixed wing aircraft. What the Ukrainians are currently doing is extraordinary.

    Per capita, Ukraine and Russia have a similar number of personnel. But Russia spends 3 times more - per capita - than Ukraine does. Which means that every Russian soldier has access to at least 3 times the resources that every Ukrainian does.

    Since military spending is quite uniform as a global market, Russia actually spends 12 times more on military than Ukraine does. That is, a fighter jet is €30m whether you buy it in Ukraine or Russia. For every piece of military hardware that Ukraine buys, Russia buys 12.

    Russia has already lost this war. Approaching two months into a "special military operation" that was supposed to be an easy win because of the above size discrepancies, and they're being forced to cook up excuses to rebrand it as a war so they can keep fighting without making it look like they've fvcked up. Even if they secure Mariupol and decide it's time to declare victory and pull back, the attacks on the corridor are going to be relentless. Like the British in Northern Ireland, Russian soldiers will know that being sent to Donetsk is being sent into hell. The enemy will be everywhere and won't take prisoners.

    Russia's military is tired and creaking. They don't have the manpower to hold it indefinitely.

    Why are the soldiers in Mariupol holding out? If you were surrounded by the Nazis in WW2, would you have surrendered? Knowing that you're not going to be detained and then sent home, but that if you're lucky enough not to be shot in the head, you're going to be beaten, mutilated and starved before being shipped out to a concentration camp. I'd probably keep fighting tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,118 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The Russians slaughtered innocent civilians in Northern Ukraine.

    As part of that regime of terror they went house to house looking for men of fighting age - if there was any evidence that they may have been involved with the territorial defence, or were army veterans, they were executed.

    Those stories have gone all over the country. Every single Ukrainian solder will be intimately aware of them and will have pictured themselves in that exact same scenario.

    No wonder those soldiers will not surrender to the Russians in Mariupol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,537 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Some interesting developments in Crimea. Apparently quite a few prominent people in the Crimean administration have been extremely critical of the attacks on the rest of Ukraine with the result of the so called local "government" there is getting very jumpy and threatening them with all sorts. This would suggest that the idea of all of the Russian administration in Crimea being a bunch of pro-Putin fanatics and zealots who strongly approve of the invasion and killing of Ukrainian civilians may not be accurate at all.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is reported in the Guardian that Ukrainians are queueing for - wait for it - postage stamps. Stamps that depict those valiant defender telling the Muskva war ship to 'Go fvck your self' or whatever that is in Ukrainian.




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    In areas controlled by Russia, in just 6 weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,356 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Even if they secure Mariupol and decide it's time to declare victory and pull back, the attacks on the corridor are going to be relentless. Like the British in Northern Ireland, Russian soldiers will know that being sent to Donetsk is being sent into hell. The enemy will be everywhere and won't take prisoners.

    What if the Russian plan is to completely ethnically cleanse those parts of the Donbas they intend to hold in perpetuity (and it seems they're already pretty far along in this project)? AFAICS the 'corridor' across to Crimea/Kherson is currently pretty wide at all points, once the Mariupol nut is cracked. Once the Russians decide to 'consolidate' what they hold, likely patrolling most of it for the Russian army will be comparable to patrolling East Antrim for the British Army. If there are no or very small numbers of insurgents 'behind the lines' it shouldn't be that hard for Russia to hold annexed 'Ukranian' territory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    It's an incredible feat of fighting and heroism that the Ukrainians have held out there for so long.

    That'll be of comfort to them when they're dead.

    They're going to lose the battle either way, may as well survive.



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