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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    I've always thought the Irish army was rubbish. What's that got to do with anything?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Wouldn't surprise me if the "buffer" on the east and south is what Putin wanted all along and the invasion into the rest of Ukraine was a tool to be used for negotiations..."Allow us east and south line and we'll pull out of the west."



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,987 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Well if it works and he does get that then he's won anyways.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    He already had that and Crimea ,

    So what commit genocide to gain a few kms of land belongings to ukraine,he didn't need a buffer he could have easily permanently posted 100,000 troops on the border ,he could even build a wall ,

    So the idea of he only wants a buffer is bs



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,353 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    One doesn't commit war cimes on the other side of the nation simply to create a "buffer" zone in the East. This was a war of aggression to take over the country and install a puppet. Or indeed, one doesn't attempt to take a nation's capital for this reason. It's like saying an army invaded Dublin so they could take South KErry.

    Again, it must be repeated, the narrative in Russia has been clear: Ukraine is ours, it is Russian, we want it "back". No doubt in the coming months we'll find out just how close the Russians came to taking Kyiv and that like Stalingrad, small ground-level skirmishes made the difference between Ukraine's continued existence and Russia taking its head.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Mariupol has held up the Russians for weeks, it could be one of the key turning points in the war, even if it falls. Their sacrifice could ultimately save countless Ukrainian lives. If it wasn't for the bravery of Ukrainians like these guys and their leadership the whole country would be under occupation now and god knows how many would be systematically liquidated like the countless bodies turning up from recently liberated areas. The Russian military are utterly brutal, surrendering doesn't automatically mean survival.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Crimea has been starved of water as the Ukrainians blocked the canal supplying water into it. Crimea is dying due to it.

    But it’s not fixed, and Crimea -- six years after the Russian takeover -- faces severe water shortages.

    The dry-up has triggered migration from arid areas, largely in the north and east, that experts direly warn face the threat of desertification. Agriculture on the peninsula is in retreat as water-intense crops like rice are abandoned.

    Putin will want access to the Dnipro river to ensure it won't happen again.

    By securing the south coast Russia will also secure all the offshore oil reserves that have been discovered in the last decade or so. The reserves there are enormous.

    The exact volumes of gas currently lying deep underneath the Black Sea are not yet known. Rough estimates predict that the Ukrainian shelf may contain more than two trillion cubic meters of gas. The exact figure is yet to be determined since two-thirds of the country’s maritime area passed to de facto Russian control following Moscow’s illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014. Ukraine’s state energy company Naftogaz is preparing to explore 32 remaining blocks.

    Where else is there massive oil and gas reserves? In the Dnieper Donets basin, coincidentally partly in the Donbas, stretching up to Kharkiv.

    Discovered reserves of the system are 1.6 billion barrels of oil and 59 trillion cubic feet of gas.




  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    @Pussyhands - if that was me I'd be laying down the arms.

    @Pussyhands - Lambs to the slaughter. Wouldn't be for me.

    @Pussyhands - That'll be of comfort to them when they're dead.

    @Pussyhands - They're going to lose the battle either way, may as well survive.


    It's called honour, courage and fighting for freedom... none of which they'd have if they surrendered. But all those qualities are probably alien to you.

    We wouldn't have a free world at all if everyone had the same defeatist views as you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    I wouldn’t surrender to the Russians especially if I was in the Azov battalion. A bullet in the head would be a far better outcome than to be taken alive by the Russians. Remember Putin is trying to rehabilitate the image of Stalin. Stalin being the man who propagated the inhumane gulag system which is just a step down ( arguably equivalent)from the Nazi concentration camps of WW2. God knows what sort of prisoner camps exist in Russia at this time being led by a man who so obviously admires the methods of Stalinism.

    Better to go in a blaze of glory in the steel plant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Did the US "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan? Putin has already lost more men in 4 weeks than the US lost in both those conflicts in 20 years, so I am curious how Putin "wins" in a hostile country they are having serious difficulties invading.

    Maybe Russia makes gains in the East and manages to hold the South, then what, he declares some sort of victory, how does that work if the Ukrainians don't accept it and keep fighting? they've shown they are more than capable of hurting the Russian military machine. Ukraine has the strongest economies in the world backing it, Russia has a crumbling sanctioned economy the size of Italy's and decreasing..

    Indeed Russia still has a large military, but how long can they keep this going for? Keep in mind the Ukrainians are fighting for their lives, their country, whereas Russian soldiers are just fighting for a pretty measly pay-packet and some rich dictator's war. They are quickly finding out everything they've been told about the war has turned out to be BS. How long will they keep that up for?

    Putin is in a vice, the longer he keeps fighting, the worse this gets for the Russian military and the economy. Even if the Russians pull off some military miracle and take more territory, they are back to the situation they were in with Kyiv, where their stretched forces are being picked off by Ukrainian resistance which excels at that. Putin is working himself into a situation where he will be entirely dependent on Ukraine accepting a peace deal from him, which is not a position of power. Maybe the Ukrainians will accept it, but if they don't..



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    They'll be able hold some of it. They've already held Crimea and Donbas for 8 years. They can hold a bit more alright.

    They'll also play the long game. They've already said kids will be reducating their tongues this summer. i.e learning russian. Long term result of that is these kids will grow up essentially as Russians, fed Russian propaganda. You'll end up in a situation like the north here where you have both sides who have genuine reasons for thinking they are right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Pussyhands They'll be able hold some of it. They've already held Crimea and Donbas for 8 years. They can hold a bit more alright..

    That was before they seriously reorganized and have been armed to the teeth the Ukrainans will take every opportunity to push out the Russians and hopefully they get to push back into Crimea and turn it into another Mariupol



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because notoriously people under occupation always just become to think of themselves as the same as their oppressors and accept it. If anything Putin has done wonders for firming up the concept of Ukrainian nationality and removed any fuzzy Russian tendencies.


    They're going to lose the battle either way, may as well survive.

    And what exactly that you've seen over the past 6 weeks makes you think that if they surrendered they would survive?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭eire4


    That is a perfectly legitimate concern/question as well. Lets face it look at the spy hub that is their so called embassy in Dublin and how we have not done much to reign that in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,987 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    i tell ya one thing though, Putin is a real jerk



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,356 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    It doesn't really matter now what the original aim of the war was. What Ukraine and the world needs to know now is at what point Putin decides he has 'achieved' enough and sits down to serious negotiations. Maybe Putin has an objective in his mind in terms of territory seized. Or maybe it'll be determined by what happens on the battlefield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Russia didn't hold Crimea, they annexed it with no military resistance. They managed to "hold" about one third of Donbas, for 8 years in a frozen conflict with a "normal" economy. The situation now is very different, they are fighting a fully mobilised Ukraine, which has a flood of weapons arriving in, vast numbers of Ukrainians from abroad have returned to fight, they have around a million reservists with some military training as well as a high morale army of around 200,000 with no shortage of volunteers. Ukraine's situation is still difficult but they have just forced them out of Northern Ukraine in a month, Russia is under heavy global sanctions, so how does Moscow "win" if Ukraine doesn't accept any of their peace deals?

    Do they just sit in Donbas with a low morale army losing countless numbers of men and equipment every month to Ukrainians with modern weapon systems in a country that hates them, is that "winning"?

    As for your bizarre comparison to Northern Ireland, Mariupol was heavily pro-Russian, how did they welcome Russia? How has the rest of Ukraine welcomed Russia?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Indeed. In my experience these types of individuals are almost always fanatically anti-Western, blaming "the West" for pretty much everything. While they sit in their comfortable Western countries, with their freedom and democracy, parroting talking points spouted by totalitarian leaders. In this case they can no longer support Putin, so I've noticed they content themselves with just making contrarian talking points and concern trolling about Zelensky, mostly out of sheer spite more than anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,537 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    But that won't end the war and Ukraine may well refuse to negotiate anything with him. The Ukrainians are in such a strong position now militarily that they will almost certainly keep on fighting - Putin has totally lost control of the situation.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I was making this point elsewhere. Whilst everyone, including myself, is happy to support Ukranian refugees here in Ireland, this blue and yellow bombardment is way over the top. Ukrainian flags everywhere and the "We Stand With Ukraine" on every second bus stop etc.

    Why are the government putting so much money and effort into this campaign?

    Feels like we're surrounded by war propaganda. It's completely unnecessary for a neutral country, especially when nobody is objecting to helping the refugees.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Strange, I haven't seen Ukrainian flags "everywhere", nor "we stand with Ukraine" at most bus stops. Considering you openly express very strange beliefs (including that the "NWO" puts satanic symbols on baby clothes) I'm going to put that down to a bit of exaggeration on your part.

    As for our support of Ukraine? seems to be on a par with most other European countries. This is the largest and most significant war on European soil since 1939, so it's unsurprising.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hahaha, you again. I see you're still bitter about losing every argument you've ever had with me 🤣

    Anyway, if you left your house once in a while, instead of "reporting" constantly on here (or whatever you posting endless Twitter links is called), you'd see what's out there. Here's an example from your favorite news site:



    It's all over Dublin City Centre, and elsewhere. Most bus stop digital advertising has the flag and the "We Stand With Ukraine" messaging, too. Unnecessary bombardment. Ukraine isn't a part of the European Union, either.

    In short... refugees: absolutely. A new propaganda campaign to replace the last: no, thanks.





  • Registered Users Posts: 16,356 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I believe it would end the war, at least on the current scale, because Zelensky would insist any peace settlement is backed up by a guarantee of Ukraine's future security that would make it impossible, or at least ruinously costly, for Russia to mount such an invasion again. IMO Zelensky may well decide that such a guarantee is worth sacrificing some territory in the Donbas that is now, or is shortly set to become, a total wasteland anyway.

    I wish I could be as confident as you about ultimate Ukrainian victory but the phase that the war is now entering very much plays to Russia's strengths such as they are. Pushing the Russians back to the boundaries at the start of this year, let alone pre-2014, could well take years of bitter attritional struggle to a point where the Ukrainians may decide the game is not worth the candle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,537 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Ukraine has already said that sacrificing part of the Donbass is totally out of the question. The equivalent would be the British army invading the Republic from the north and us telling them they can keep parts of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan in order for the war to end i.e an absolute non runner (and keep in mind it would involve handing over Ukrainian citizens to the fascist Putin regime, not just 'territory').



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Like opening a can of worms..

    Similar to many European countries, Irish people are concerned about Ukraine and are showing their support. However you seem to be hinting something nefarious is going on over here, what would that be?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands



    Russia didn't hold Crimea? So Ukrainians blocked the water supply into Crimea for what reason? To kill their own citizens?

    Fully mobilised Ukraine...exactly. And they are going to take the south/east corridor inevitably. The Ukraine force is at its peak. It can only get smaller from here. Russia have tens of thousands more sitting at home they can send in if they want to.

    Ukraine have a million reservists and 200k army? Impressive....so why did Zelensky ban any man 18-60 from leaving? Why, is a force of 1.2 with western supplied weapons, not able to crush an army of 100k, which have lost 20k men now?

    If the desire to stay and fight for Ukraine is so strong, why was the ban put in?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Russia illegally annexed Crimea in 2014, so apparently it's Moscow's problem now. According to Ukraine they reduced the water supply due to unpaid debts.

    "Ukraine have a million reservists and 200k army? Impressive....so why did Zelensky ban any man 18-60 from leaving?" Why wouldn't he? the country was being invaded, they needed all the hands they could get. Not just holding guns, but carrying out all the logistics of running a war/country. They also didn't know what would happen, if there would be mass panic or whatever.

    "Why, is a force of 1.2 with western supplied weapons, not able to crush an army of 100k, which have lost 20k men now?" It's not 1.2 million men vs 100,000 men like some sort of Roman battle. The Russian invasion force was initially around 190,000 with vastly more vehicles and equipment than the Ukrainian military, a ratio of almost 10 to 1 in many cases. You could always read about the conflict some time instead of all this guess-work, plenty of material and news about it.

    "If the desire to stay and fight for Ukraine is so strong, why was the ban put in?" As above. Thankfully there wasn't mass panic. In fact, quite the opposite, there's been 10's of thousands of expat Ukrainians returning to the country to fight and help.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When people questioning the war in Ukraine and any support for the Ukrainian people by Irish people, post links to anti vax bog rolls (3 of which, from a quick glance , I know from work are the same person posting under different account names) and images from what a mate calls "Breitbart for those that can't read", you know that they don't have an argument to stand over.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Irish people" aren't the ones putting up the flags shown in the picture and aforementioned digital advertising around Dublin City Centre (and elsewhere). It's councils and the government (via taxpayer funds, of course).

    As to your question, you'll have to ask them why they're funding it, not me. Wouldn't that money be better spent actually looking after the refugees? We're already doing our part (and rightfully so), but there's no need to bombard citizens of our neutral country with blue and yellow / "We Stand With" messaging everywhere.

    That's all I have to say on the matter, cheers.



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