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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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Comments

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,914 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid



    Hmm.. without wanting to come across as pedantic (which I probably am in any case) and ignorant of the miniutae of history as it's not my academic area of specialty, but wasn't the American revolution - the 1776 Declaration of Independence etc. and the 1781-83 war BEFORE the French revolution of 1789-94? So in fact it should be posited that the French revolution was in fact inspired by the American one?

    Either way, both were direct wellsprings of the Age of Enlightenment, - the concept of a secular Republic "for the people, by the people" / "liberty, fraternity, equality" - a cultural phenomenon that has never taken place in Islamic societies.

    Post edited by JupiterKid on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Feck off, you pedant. 😁

    But yeah, pretty much, nail on the head JK. On all counts.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


     So in fact it should be posited that that the Fernch revolution was in fact inspired by the American one?

    I think the reference is that most of the progressive ideas of that time was coming out of France leading up to the revolution, whether that was poetry, actual philosophy or political science. A large percentage of the great thinkers of that time were French..

    I don't know a lot about the era, but I can remember a few movies who used these thinkers/writers for the basis of generating support among the educated, which gave rise to the change in perception about the inherent qualities of man, and what is a man. Class consciousness, of course, being different depending on who is involved, and as such revolution being brought about on many levels. Or something like that. haha. Not my thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Is it not good news for Rwanda though?

    Sure does it not make Rwdnda more cultural diverse now..something you dream of.

    Surely a great day for Rwanda.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    I'm not aware of prisons ever having contributed anything to culture because if its anything like the aussie system, then that's what it's going to be




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It sure stopped the drownings from people smugglers trying to get people to Australia didn't it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    They aint exactly living in 5 star hotels in France.

    Maybe this is a super opportunity for Rwanda to become Cultural diverse and improve their economy.

    England's loss could be Rwanda gain



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    It'll be great for Rwanda's GDP



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,914 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    It's a hare-brained attempt to deflect and distract from Boris Johnson's own deep political failings and rank hypocrisy over the anger among the UK electorate over his blatant disregard for others vis a vis his many Covid lockdown parties at Number 10.

    It won't work beyond the immediate short-term as Rwanda are being bribed by the UK govt to partake in this folly and almost certainly lack the capacity, competence and infrastructure for this. Expect some kind of crisis and u-turn on this before too long...

    Just as Boris's attempts to use the war in Ukraine to his own political advantage and cling on to power at any cost is pretty obvious to anyone with more than a few brain cells - and who prefers to get their news from sources other than Sky News and the tabloids.

    It's all about distraction and self-preservation and little if anything to do with trying to properly deal with the people trafficking/illegal immigration problem.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The most explosive clash came when Le Pen confirmed she was sticking to her controversial policy of banning the wearing of the Islamic headscarf by women in public, describing it as a “uniform imposed by Islamists”.

    Macron responded: “You are going to cause a civil war if you do that. I say this sincerely.”

    I don't know what's worse: the French president sincerely believing that a certain community in France are capable of starting a war over clothing, or the fact that he may be right.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The sad part is that perhaps that civil war needs to happen, if only to get all this crap out in the open, and capable of being dealt with. France has been too divided for far too long (beyond their natural/native divisions).



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    It is crazy. Imagine your president/PM/Taoiseach saying that. If we don't bow to Islams demands, there'll be a civil war. How weak and pathetic the West has become.

    Europe's first multicultural civil war.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    It'll be great to have all that new blood to pay for their Pensions too!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's an exaggeration in any case. The Muslim population isn't big enough to pose that much of a genuine threat. The danger is more from long-term terrorism, and violent protests as a result of cracking down on them.

    All the same, the Muslim population continues to grow quickly, so they'd be better off cracking down on this now, returning French culture/behavioural norms to supremacy, and establishing the place of foreign cultures in France. Leaving it to later will make the eventual conflict much much worse. But that's the way Westerners are with most things... defer the problem to the next generation, who defer it to the next.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I know it's hyperbole from Macron. I'm not sure what Le Pen's answer was, but i'd hope it was something along the lines of "isn't it a great pity you have let France go this far".

    But in France, as was previously seen in Spain (ETA) and Ireland (IRA), a small group can cause big trouble for a bigger power.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    They’re both trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator in French society, and voters are kinda stuck trying to decide which candidate is the lesser of two evils -

    https://amp.france24.com/en/france/20220418-in-france-s-unhappy-democracy-voting-for-lesser-evil-is-a-bitter-pill-to-swallow


    The political slogan “liberty, equality, fraternity” is being shown up for the meaningless farce it always was since it’s inception -

    The term "Terror" being used to describe the period was introduced by the Thermidorian Reaction who took power after the fall of Maximilien Robespierre in July 1794, to discredit Robespierre and justify their actions. Today there is consensus amongst historians that the exceptional revolutionary measures continued after the death of Robespierre, and this subsequent period is now called the "White Terror". By then, 16,594 official death sentences had been dispensed throughout France since June 1793, of which 2,639 were in Paris alone; and an additional 10,000 died in prison, without trial, or under both of these circumstances.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Well since current and former European leaders like Macron, Rutte, Merkel, Lofven, Juncker, May etc don't have kids, it's probably more difficult for them to think of the next generation in real terms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭Cordell


    No, probably we won't be seeing the government overthrown and the new Islamic Republic of Franchistan being established anytime soon, but things are getting worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    The fact that a Presidential debate in France is even talking about civil war shows how far things have got out of hand.

    The fact that a Pakistani boxer has to tell Sadiq Kahn to get his act together to make London safer again shows how things have got out of hand.

    All of these are signs of a lower quality of life. And then some BS artist politician or economist tells you it's good for GDP. Laughable if it wasn't so deadly serious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The same as is happening in the UK is happening in France - immigration and multiculturalism are being used as scapegoats for the disastrous handling of their economies.

    The idea of secularism in France was supposed to mean there was no prohibition on the free exercise of religion, but instead of maintaining French culture and behavioural norms, it’s only in recent years they decided to go all in on a particular religion. The idea from the beginning was nonsense in any case -

    The French philosopher and Universal Declaration of Human Rights co-drafter Jacques Maritain, a devout Catholic convert and a critic of French laïcité, noted the distinction between the models found in France and in the mid-twentieth century United States. He considered the US model of that time to be more amicable because it had both "sharp distinction and actual cooperation" between church and state, what he called "a historical treasure" and admonished the United States, "Please to God that you keep it carefully, and do not let your concept of separation veer round to the European one."


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I don't think the French or UK economies planted any bombs, beheaded anyone or groomed any young girls.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't have kids (that I know of, anyway). Being without children shouldn't matter. Although, perhaps lacking in basic common sense should.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh, I don't think a civil war would result in that.. but increased rights and liberties for all Muslims? yeah, I could see that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Nah, they just tried to conquer the known world, were involved in two world wars, and would do the same again in the morning at the first opportunity 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭Cordell



    Any more rights will be at the expense of others, usually the most vulnerable of them, the women and children. Since it's that time of the year, no one questions the barbaric full daylong fasting that includes water and any oral medicine which by either force or peer pressure is imposed on everyone.

    Pointless and meaningless whataboutery. They also created the modern world and industrial revolution and they are the reason we are so advanced that we can converse using these devices, but still, nothing to do with the topic.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    White guilt in all its glory. This philosophy has brought positives in dialling back racism and the nastier forms of nationalism, but has brought negatives with it. Among them a lingering self hate for White Europeans and in White Europeans themselves and a weird exotic fetish for anything that isn't White and European and how that will improve the "breed". Liberal progressives who want to import illiberal very conservative elements for the cause, illiberal very conservative elements their parents and grandparents tried to remove from European society. You couldn't make it up.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Giving rights generally does come at the expense of others. That's always been the case, it's just downplayed by State and the media. Usually it's one group being elevated over others.. which is a mockery of equality, and individualism. Once a group becomes protected, and/or gains benefits not available or not available to the same extent as that chosen group, inequalities occur, and we're likely to see bitterness manifest leading to racism.

    Of course, nobody will acknowledge that such preferential treatment of a group is a cause of racism. Rather it is entirely the fault of the "racists", but ultimately those who advocate for protected status or more benefits for groups (not individuals) are encouraging divisions in society.

    Which is why it's so dangerous to extend such special rights to Muslims, or any ethnic group, because it marks them out as being different from the general population. It reinforces the differences, and ensures that both Muslims and natives will be constantly aware that they are not one people.. not united and sharing the same problems, but rather two different groups struggling with limited resources, which naturally, encourages either group to be seen as an enemy.

    It's one of the main reasons why I do support the banning of the Burka or whatever headdress involved. It reinforces the impression that they are not part of western society. No doubt someone will say that western society should adapt to the point where this is accepted, but the simple truth is that it's not practical or realistic. It's not going to happen. So, what's to be done then? Ahh ignore the issue and apply some wishful thinking?

    Which is why multiculturalism is doomed to failure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Someone will be along soon talking about Bridie who wears a headscarf to bingo, no doubt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    This thread is just going round and round in circles.

    Middle class white liberals showing off their oh so right on credentials - to whom, themselves, or their wider equally warped circle? - then we get the last two comments ripping them apart with sensible arguments which has become the norm, but we just go on and on and on.

    I can only assume if you are a lover of multiculturalism, though it seems an odd concept, as many comments here have re-iterated time and time again, it has failed miserably elsewhere.

    I pop in here every week or so, and it just seems the same old same old. I see the thread has been running for 2 years almost.

    Is it just me, or do others feel the same? Genuine question.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Same, I only pop in the odd time now and see the same questions, answers and arguments. Some of the folks who happen upon the thread and rehash the same old, same old, don't like it when you point out that its all been said before though.

    On the plus side, I do love seeing Ireland becoming more multicultural :)

    The more the merrier



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  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    So it looks like there's actually no limit being placed on the numbers of Ukrainians coming.

    I can see something like this, and the ensuing shortages of housing which would be made worse, resulting in a massive shift to home building by the govt. Possibly even formation of some agency to manage it and carry out the construction.

    RTE news : 'No cap on refugees despite challenges' - minister





  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is it just me, or do others feel the same? Genuine question.

    Ahh well, I remember quite clearly when the PC movement was in full swing, and the attitude against anything opposing the virtuous was the pits of evil, and squashed. A lot like the way the topic of multiculturalism and immigration is managed in this country.

    Yes, the thread is definitely circular/repetitive... however I think it's important to continue the presence of an objection against it, because we haven't reached, in this country, any serious position where these issues are dealt with in a balanced way.

    Remove the thread, and we'll simply go back to the social silence relating to the topic, and I'd prefer to avoid that. It's also a good place for people to try out arguments, and find logical sequences for countering the exclamations of the emotionally driven. Lastly, I find it's a good reference thread, to use when I encounter those who failed so badly to promote multiculturalism, but find them on other threads. Helps to avoid going into the massive detail or the provision of links/articles which we did earlier in the thread.

    So, yeah, I see definite value in keeping the thread going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,961 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    And where do you suggest to get the manpower and skill set required, or pay for the costs involved etc?

    If the Governments of the last decade haven't been able to do this then how do you imagine this happening now given the issues we're already facing?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't worry, He will magic it all up. We''ll be grand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,961 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_




  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    What I outlined was pure speculation on my part so I can't offer specifics. That being said, in terms of funding, I would liken the situation to covid i.e. its an emergency, so borrowing could be facilitated through the EU in some form (bonds, EIB etc). You can be damned sure a lot of countries are going to need to borrow a lot to accommodate refugees from this war.

    As for manpower and skills, well a few hundred thousand refugees should contain some with the required skills as well as plenty who would be looking for work who could be trained up.

    I'm not saying it would be easy, it wouldn't and again, its pure speculation on my part so this may not even come to pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Pointless and meaningless whataboutery. They also created the modern world and industrial revolution and they are the reason we are so advanced that we can converse using these devices, but still, nothing to do with the topic.


    How is it pointless and meaningless whataboutery when it was a direct comparison to your equally flippant nonsense? Did a bang-up job of creating the modern world too, didn’t they? Still the same as the old one, only now instead of having their minions look the person in the eye when they’re killing them, it can be done from a safe distance, like the other side of the globe safe distance, and politicians don’t have to get their hands dirty at all.

    There’s fcukall in the way of nuance in your post and frankly I can’t be arsed, but imagining that either the French or the British alone were responsible for the industrial revolution or that they alone responsible for us conversing on the devices we’re using, is being wilfully ignorant. Where do you imagine they got the resources?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,210 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Nope not doing it anymore.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’re just after demonstrating that it can be made up, and you did. My flippant retort wasn’t motivated by any sort of white guilt. It was in response to the poster presenting the usual “Europe good, everywhere else bad” false narrative, as if European countries literally are whiter than white! They’re clearly not, and when someone is making that same “Everywhere else bad” point, then it absolutely should be pointed out to them to remove the beam from their own eye.

    There’s no hatred of white Europeans or anything else, it’s simply acknowledging that history is more nuanced than simplistic narratives. The same chest-beating patriots claiming modern Western society is superior, are the same lads claiming Western society is weak with all the wokey, limp-wristed lefty-lib… etc, and they wouldn’t work to warm themselves! They’re taking credit for the work of a small number of people in the West, while pointing out that everywhere else is inferior, based upon the behaviour of a small number of people!

    It’s not importing illiberal elements that weren’t exported in the first place by European Colonists in service of their Monarchs who thought of themselves as greater than God and wanted to spread their Kingdoms on earth. It’s not unusual or unreasonable that rulers in the Middle East would infuse their followers with an equal disdain for Western ideas of liberal democracies either. Banning headscarves is easy, shipping people off to former colonies is easy, expensive, but easy. That’s taking candy from a baby stuff. Doing something that will actually alleviate suffering of the poorest and most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society is what’s actually hard.

    I don’t have anything to feel guilty about, and I don’t have anything to be ashamed of either, and I’d challenge anyone who tried to associate me with some of the wingnuts on here who claim to represent the Irish people jeering and cheerleading at what politicians in England and France are doing to other human beings in order to save their own skin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,961 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Now that the reality is sinking in and the pressure starting expose the cracks in the "plan" (which most of us could see from the very start), there's no more social media kudos in it for her.

    I'm not surprised that it was the Indo to break the story though. They've been chasing a story on donations involving her recently too. Someone definitely doesn't like her it seems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    According to Helen...we'll be all the richer for it



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hmm.. remember all those comments about a melting pot of cultures? Wonder how all those countries are doing now..? We want you to keep your own identity from your homeland, while sharing with us everything that's foreign about you, and maybe, our society will become less Irish as a result. Yay! (after all, assimilation of foreign culture is not the aim, but rather that it stands distinctly separate so that we can look at it in awe, and look back at our own culture in sadness because its not as rich and interesting as others)

    The mind truly boggles at the short-sighted stupidity of it all. All anyone has to do is look at other nations that tried all this rubbish. The US? Messed up beyond belief with different cultural identities fighting each other for minority rights and benefits. The UK? haha.. not even worth going there. Denmark? A demographic shift that should shock everyone but gets quietly swept under the carpet. Sweden? the rise of the far right, with violent clashes in the streets, and bombs going off. And the list goes on and on.

    But do we take notice? Nope. Not even slightly. Welcome! You're Irish but we expect you to retain your foreign identity. Bloody hell. It's official, our politicians are truly **** retards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    I thought you'd need the box of kleenex for it alright going by your previous posts...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    The Ukrainian refugees are almost entirely women and children, very few men, a lot of quite educated people. I haven't met any of them so far who would be looking to work on a building site.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Ah yeah, but if you lived in lovely imaginationland like other posters, you'd see it!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    At least ye are finally giving up the facade of believing in integration.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    A large part of the promulticulturalist crowd is of the student leftie "sticking it to the racists maaaan!" kind. They've pretty much zero argument beyond that and as we've seen repeatedly they will even acknowledge that by saying there is no argument around it it just is and is inevitable. Oh and "I love seeing exotic people about the place" of course .

    Still smells of sackcloth and ashes to me(organic and ethically sourced of course).

    As for the "most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society", fine, so why are we importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised? As an example there isn't a single western "multicultural" nation on Earth where Black people aren't more likely to be at the lower social, educational and economic end of society. So how do you propose to change just that aspect alone of this multicultural pipedream? If you know of a way do share because not a single other nation has been able to manage it and I'm sure they'd love to hear your solutions. Well any that go beyond peace and love and prayers. "Education" is an empty solution too. And yep racism is a huge chunk of the reasons why, but that hasn't been solved anywhere else either. In Ireland even after barely two decades of this social experiment we're seeing the exact same thing playing out. Again.

    From that Irish Times article above:

    Sixteen per cent of African nationals living in Ireland were unemployed last year, compared with 7 per cent of Irish and 4 per cent of western Europeans living in the State. Just 45 per cent of African-born nationals have a job. More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.

    Our neighbour the UK with many more decades than us of running this multicultural experiment still hasn't figured it out:

    In the twelve months to September 2021, the unemployment rate was highest for people from a Black (11%) ethnic background and people from Mixed or multiple ethnic backgrounds (11%). It was lowest for people from a White (4%) or Indian (5%) ethnic background.

    And it's not just about race either, because:

    People from White (3.5%) and Indian (4.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the lowest unemployment rates, and people from Pakistani (10.2%) and Bangladeshi (9.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the highest rates in October-December 2021.

    So British Indians were among the least likely to be unemployed, yet British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were the most likely? Same "race" last time I checked and British racists would see the same Brown "Paki". So there are clear cultural aspects at play and internal ones. Though we don't dare talk about them.

    Hopes and wishes are laudable, but reality stands there looking at its feet. What's that old quote about doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Wibbs, it reminds me of the Student Union socialist types (ages 20's, 30's,40's +) that say that Communism/Marxism was never properly implemented but that WE (i.e. the ego-driven speaker and their ilk) are so much smarter and can get it to work. This time.

    Or that we just need a new type of Marxism/Socialism/Communism to prevail. And that their version WILL work damnit.



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