The annual Teachers threaten to strike thread

HerrKuehn · 21-04-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955928#Comment_118955928

I think this post more shows your naivety/ignorance than anything else. The examples you gave are the types of things that are either heavily regulated by the state or formerly run by the state.

fliball123 · 21-04-2022 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956099#Comment_118956099

Well if it happens FF/FG will be history and good riddens and SF will be elected by a landslide and god knows what these lads will do they are a complete unknown entity and there will be a lot more protests out there if there is a continuation of the current trend of paying areas that have no business being prioritized over services that have been mismanaged and underfunded for decades.

Summer2020 · 21-04-2022 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956136#Comment_118956136

Good thing no one in the real world listens to the so called polling experts such as yourself.

fliball123 · 21-04-2022 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956151#Comment_118956151

Well see how it goes its all speculation so far but in my opinion (and we can come back to this post after the next G.E to see if I was wide of the mark) as SF are going be voted in as a 2 finger salute/protest vote to the current government. As things cannot remain as they are and even though SF have no figures to back up what they are saying they will do the general consensus I am hearing from friends, work colleges and lads who I play football with and it boils down to one statement. "I know SF are lying with their figures but sure they cant be any worse than the current shower" So what is a voter to do. Sure we will see how it plays out.

I dont pay much attention to the polls but that is what the current polls are showing

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-solidifies-position-as-most-popular-party-as-overall-support-for-coalition-falls-poll-reveals-41514603.html

Danno · 21-04-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955204#Comment_118955204

Yep, if there's an extra day off to be had they'll stick it on after or just before a bank holiday and close the school instead of insisting that teachers book the extra day off in a fashion that doesn't cause the school to close.

Bumper long weekends, week-long mid-terms, months-long summer holidays, etc... teachers will fight on their back not to have them impinged upon in any way.

Remember last year owing to Covid19, it was mooted that schools close another week after Christmas but open a week later into the summer to pay back that week... not over their dead bodies was that going to happen.

Danno · 21-04-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954838#Comment_118954838

Most schools had taken a discretionary day on the Friday already so that day was a holiday,

Correct

they therefore had an extra day to take so they added it on to make a longer weekend.

Absolutely my point!!! The arrogance of this - closing a school on a whim.

I'm assuming you wanted schools to say a fu<ck it we only work the odd they here and there anyway so we will hand back this holiday the government gave us and will work through it. Did you do that yourself??

Erm, no - nowhere did I say that any teacher should not get their quota of days off. It should have been taken - but not in a manner that causes a school to close.

The school calendar is not set in stone what is set is the number of days worked each year.

So, last year when the teaching unions told us that the calendar was set in stone, they were lying - right?

This year was an anomaly we haven't been given an extra bank holiday before - not since I've been working at any rate.

And many of the teachers used it to maximum benefit to turn an already generous 4-day weekend into a 5-day weekend at short notice, because they're special like that.

Pussyhands · 21-04-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956030#Comment_118956030

They'd just whinge about equal pay equal work. For as smart as these teachers are they don't understand the rate and quality at which something is done and not just the type of work makes everyone worth different amounts.

Faugheen · 21-04-2022 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956898#Comment_118956898

Again, what metrics make one teacher more valuable than another?

21-04-2022 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956919#Comment_118956919

We would have to assume performance when compared with other teachers. Obviously class years can differ in ability, we all know that there can be particularly good and bad classes, most however are likely to fall someone between the two. If the results consistently fall below an expected level based on assessment of performance and improvement cannot be achieved through a PIP, then like the private sector, they should be shown the door.

fliball123 · 21-04-2022 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956986#Comment_118956986

If only we could do that with rest of the public sector how much would we save on pensions given to retired and disgraced politicians alone

Faugheen · 21-04-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956986#Comment_118956986

Again, how can you judge that when literally every single school child is different?

Teachers getting H1s for their students every year is great and all, but are they capable of getting that one child who, for love nor money, just can’t get that pass in Maths that they need for third level over the line?

A teacher who can make that breakthrough is just as valuable as the ones who help their class of brain-boxes get H1s, but that teacher’s results and ‘performance’ won’t stack up in the league tables because they’re trying to perform the same miracles with 15-20+ others.

21-04-2022 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957308#Comment_118957308

When doing statistical analysis, not all students are expected to be the same, but there is a constant, the teacher. Also, we are not talking about a class full of H1’s, we are talking about statistical analysis of the teacher’s students when compared to a large number of teachers students. There of course will be classes/years where the results will go up or down, but if they are consistently down year after year when compared to the average, then that teacher should have to go. When doing performance reviews in the private sector, the comparison is not with the best, it is with the expected standard based on a larger sample.

TheValeyard · 21-04-2022 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956871#Comment_118956871

Jesus dude, sounds like your missing out. Quick sign up and join the fun!!!

Faugheen · 21-04-2022 6:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957344#Comment_118957344

Ok, so a teacher who year-after-year gets a class where he/she is grateful for the kids even coming to school consistently gets results that represent that, then they should go?

This isn’t a business. It’s a stupidly simplistic way of looking at things.

Again, the idea of someone who has never been at the top of a classroom trying to teach.

21-04-2022 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957586#Comment_118957586

You can throw up as many different scenarios as you want, however, it is not difficult to do a statistical analysis for the performance of individual teachers relative to their peers. Your example may be no different to kids who love coming to school but have a shite teacher, both should have their performance analysed.

You think it’s stupidly simple, I think it is simple to implement and it is stupid not to. An employee, whether it be in a business, or a school should have their performance reviewed and if they fall short of the expected standard, they should not keep their job.

Put simply for you Faugheen, and hopefully stupid proof it, performance of teachers should be constantly reviewed to ensure kids are getting the standard of education they deserve, and for which you guys are being paid for. Teachers continued employment should not be an entitlement, it should be contingent on performance, yes, like a business.

If you are a good teacher, you have nothing to fear as the analysis would not be based on a single year. If you are crap, you should fear losing your job. And it should be easy for the Dept to remove you.

PokeHerKing · 21-04-2022 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957586#Comment_118957586

What if, teachers, got measured in some way, like graded or something.

I dunno, could be too wild a concept to be honest, imagine grading performances in a school setting... ah I'm probably talking $hite.

Faugheen · 21-04-2022 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957698#Comment_118957698

And you are saying 'teacher x' should be judged the same as 'teacher y' based on statistics alone, which absolutely, in no jurisdiction, would work because of the differing nature of their challenges.

I'm not trying to say there are bad teachers here. Of course there are. However what you're proposing would threaten to kick good teachers out of the system for the simple reason that grades aren't high enough with zero context into the classes they are teaching.

It's an absolutely bonkers policy which, again, shows that you think education should be run like a business when it's far from it.

Faugheen · 21-04-2022 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957778#Comment_118957778

But how would you grade them, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Every teacher is different. My Irish teacher was piss poor for someone like me who was bang average at the subject. A lot of lads in my class were getting top marks despite this because they had a good grasp of the language. Me, however, I wasn't great at it at all and this teacher was of no help to me whatsoever. I ended up dropping down to ordinary level while the performance of his class remained decent. How to you 'grade' that?

teachinggal123 · 21-04-2022 7:27pm

And, yet again, teachers letting the teaching profession down very badly on a boards thread. Teachers take note - Valid criticism is not teacher bashing. Just because someone makes a justified criticism of the disgraceful behaviour of the TUI/ASTI/INTO does not mean they have some repressed rage against a teacher from 25 years ago or that they should 'go be a teacher if it's so great'. These are valid criticisms (which teachers hear every day) and should be taken as such instead of being dismissed as bitterness and teacher bashing.

A question to the teachers on this thread - you you really think we deserve a 6%+2% (or similar) pay rise? And this, on top of additional pay rises for new teachers to bring them into parity with the old timers? What would that be - 10-15%???? Do teachers not understand that would spiral across the PS and make inflation far, far worse? We are well paid and we get good perks. Asking for these kind of pay rises is just taking the piss and people are justifiably angry about that.

And especially after the sh1t show that was laughably passed of as 'teaching' during COVID. I'm a teacher and I can absolutely tell you that a large amount of teachers did nothing during that entire time. So, huge pay rises for teachers now!! Really?

Also I have to mention that the reaction of teachers on this thread is not a surprise to me and is typical of the attitude of colleagues in most staff rooms I've been in. If you want an indication of this and the bitterness and bile that can exist in the staffroom take a browse through some of the threads on the teaching & learning forum. Teachers are in a huge bubble, and there are massive problems with the profession in general and many, many of the people in it. Teaching as a profession has big problems.

And yes, I do get battered and shunned by other teachers for saying this. But it is true and plain to see. This is all made worse as teachers do not want to hear criticism of any sort ... we are happy in our little echo chamber. <snip> Mod note - stick to the topic - do not discuss other users

I'll await the insults from teacher colleagues in the following posts.

21-04-2022 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957786#Comment_118957786

Faugheen, at any point in your no doubt long educational journey, did you come across statistical analysis in any form? The method selected can make it fair to all teachers, not just x and y.

Statisticians design studies far more complex than assessing teachers performance.

I don’t think education should be run like a business which for the most part is dependent on the performance of employees for financial profit, I do however think that teachers should be subject to performance review like any employee in the private sector. If your Irish teacher was teaching today and couldn’t up his/her game, he/she should be kicked out. Analysis over a few years would show that though the high achieving students would get good results, the average ones like you would not. A better teacher may have helped you.

JayPS 2288 · 21-04-2022 7:31pm

Why don’t teachers have to undergo regular examinations to ensure their knowledge is still on par?

Many professionals have to do this, bus and lorry drivers have to do CPC, plumbers have to do the RGI… etc.

If their job is as important to society as they make out then surely this should be done.

Why can’t we insist, for example, that every year, or even every two years, teachers have to take the LC HL exam for the subjects that they are being paid to teach. The pass rate would be set high, 80%. They’re educated to a university Level After all so a LC exam in that subject should be a breeze. Let’s maintain a high standard.

Pussyhands · 21-04-2022 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957308#Comment_118957308

Strange line of thinking. We had two honours classes for Irish. One was a class teacher, the other was rubbish. The good teacher got great results mostly. The **** teacher, only the brain boxes got great results.

airy fairy · 21-04-2022 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957778#Comment_118957778

Well something should be done. Teachers seem to be untouchable from my experience of just being a parent.

Not just the performance side of things, as they can vary from class to class, but I think complaints from parents should be handled by an outside body, almost from the moment that a discussion is had between teacher, principal and parent. Teachers should be assessed for their suitability for the job, especially when we've older teachers now on the verge of guiding students around the proposed CBAs in new leaving cert.

JayPS 2288 · 21-04-2022 7:55pm

I had a look at the pre 2011 scale which Starts at €36,290 and caps at €66,244 after 25 years and the post 2011 one which Starts at €38,192 and caps at €71,503 after 27 years.

Are the newer teachers paid less or not 🫤 💭 🤔

History Queen · 21-04-2022 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957698#Comment_118957698

Is what you're looking for, as regards standards, not the role of the inspectorate? Or is it linking to pay you want? How do you rate the performance of teachers in non exam subjects or teachers not teaching Junior or Leaving cert students? What about resource teachers and team teachers?

Treppen · 21-04-2022 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957938#Comment_118957938

Old scale start at point 3 + degree allowance on top (legacy issue as non hdip teachers who just had a degree started on PT 1).

New teachers start on PT. 1 plus no allowances.

History Queen · 21-04-2022 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957865#Comment_118957865

Just on this once the appropriate channels have initially been followed through the school, (policys should be published on school website outlining particular process) complaints against teachers can be reported to the Teaching Council who are obliged to investigate.

History Queen · 21-04-2022 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957848#Comment_118957848

Interesting concept. We are obliged to engage with CPD but aren't tested on our subject knowledge. Does this happen in other sectors once qualified?

Treppen · 21-04-2022 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957865#Comment_118957865

You're rambling now ted. Parents in every school complain every day. If you set up a separate body, yould be dealing with Karen ringing in about why their son wasn't picked as Captain for the team (despite the fact that he never went to training), and how it's a form of bullying.

I dealt with a parents gripe 2 weeks ago and it was cleared up when I have my side and asked him to ask his son if there was anything in it that their son wished to contradict. He emailed later and apologised.

Nothing wrong with older teachers I know by the way. They're my first go-to when I want advice on curriculum or dealing with students. Enough of the lazy I'll informed stereotypes please.

Treppen · 21-04-2022 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957848#Comment_118957848

Oh yeah the old 'teachers should sit the leaving cert too' line.

I've level 8 subject knowledge and matters on top with inservices and various courses done in my own time. I do actually sit down and do the paper in June once it's released in case a student or other teacher queries it .

Like, would you ask a dentist to sit a "pulling teeth " exam every year?

For what it's worth we have inspections every year and usually a subject inspection every 4-5 years. Results are posted publically too btw!

Not many private sector jobs where you're job appraisal is published publicly.

The annual Teachers threaten to strike thread

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