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Would you support an assumed liability rule in Ireland?

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135

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Oh so now you specify "cyclists" and "trucks" after so many people posted all sorts of incidents above.

    Pretty sure if someone showed you a cyclist crashing into a truck you would ask for a cyclist crashing into a lear jet next.

    Stop with the trolling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,732 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Have a read back. You'll see I specified cyclists and trucks from the start.


    Maybe learn to take a minute to read before going off on a rant the next time



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    I'd totally support it as long as a basic "rules of the road" training is required to be completed to cycle on the roads. Red light means stop etc, you know the basics.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    That practice hasn't been entirely successful in getting people driving cars to obey the laws!

    Anyhow, would that training and presumably testing & licencing also apply to kids cycling to school?



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    Anyone who wants to cycle on the roads - I think it's a fair ask if you want to place automatic liability on a motorist. Not asking for licensing or anything like that, simply a test with a completion certificate. That way everyone is on the same level when it comes to what to do and what not to do on the road.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you'd place that extra administratve burden on the authorities to set up and run a training scheme (for hundreds of thousands of people who'd want to cycle), and the extra administrative burden on the gardai to police it, to fix what problem?

    the only result of that scheme would be a massive reduction in the numbers of people cycling. the government are trying to promote cycling, not prevent it.

    anyway, the easiest thing would be for the gardai to actually police the existing laws.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,732 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I think it would also be fair for every motorists to attend and pass an annual workshop on basic understanding of the effect of alcohol and drugs on driving, and to educate them on the dangers of driving while intoxicated. And also a refresher course every year on how speed limits work and why they are important.


    Am I doing it right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    In effect where vulnerable road users take a claim against a motorist they are often pushing an open door due to the financial risk imbalance if it goes to hearing; this is particularly the case if the vulnerable road user isn't a mark i.e. of any means.

    The best outcome for an insurance company in such a claim is if they win it, they still incur there own costs. Winning will be hard where all the loss is on one side (cyclist injuries, loss of earning etc) against a wing mirror or whatever. Judges are slow typically to throw out such cases without pretty damning independent evidence which is rare enough.

    Some level of assumed liability could assist in changing the mindset of drivers around vulnerable roads users; particularly in car parks, housing estates, high density urban settings and reginal type high traffic roads.

    As for Cannon the Galway TD he was overtaking on left hand side in the middle of a less than 2m channel, travelling significantly faster than traffic which left him super vulnerable to a right turning vehicle who couldn't see him until the front of his vehicle had crossed his path (driving position is circa 1.5-1.8m from front bumper). If you are a vulnerable road user cycling where there is no infrastructure and low cyclist numbers (like Galway) then from a risk reduction perspective slow down, observe more, learn from experience of slow traffic stopping and allowing vehicles to cross.

    Had his case ran in criminal court what honest answer could he give to "do you think your cycling was in compliance with John Franklin's cycle craft or any other safety guidance? Did you see the brakes lights? You cycled here every week did you not realise there was a junction/entrance there? Did you realise who were almost blind to the Accused cycling within 1m of near side of traffic? Best of luck with a prosecution after he answers those honestly.

    He'll get paid in a civil court all day, with some level of small haircut I would think.

    As for scammers they won't need this law to get going. Over the years I seen a lot of fraud involving road "accidents"; every one of them has involved two cars without a sign of a vulnerable road user. Very few really commit to crashing with any speed for fear of actually getting hurt. That instinct will even more limit fraud with vulnerable road user assumed liability law. Successful frauds are harder than you think to get right and I only got to see the ones that fu(ked up one way or other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    Yeah you're doing it right, I'd agree. I don't want to share the road with assholes who can't use it safely, cyclist or otherwise so no arguement there.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, the cost of hardware replacement of a trashed bike (assuming no injuries) is a fraction the cost of a bumper even in a relatively low speed tip.

    a colleague of mine got a low 5 figure sum for coming off his bike without even being hit by the motorist in a scenario not madly unlike the cannon one (he had to swerve to avoid being hit and crashed - another motorist 'chased' the offending motorist who just drove away, into the car park she'd been turning into). but he said it was eye watering how much everyone treated the insurance aspect like a cash cow - IIRC, the hospital charged several hundred euro to provide the medical report to be sent to the insurance company.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    As someone who drives, cycles and walks - I've seen feckless drivers & feckless cyclists. Both are a liability for pedestrians and to themselves.

    The idea that the courts would assume automatic liability if a cyclist is involved in an accident with a vehicle is just plain stupid. There's drivers shouldn't be allowed on the public road but equally there are cyclists who should never be let near a bike.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The idea that the courts would assume automatic liability if a cyclist is involved in an accident with a vehicle is just plain stupid.

    again, presumed liability is for assessing damages, it is not used to assign guilt for legal offences.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    I think the principle behind it is you create a safer environment for all vulnerable road users (by forcing motorised traffic to be super vigilant) at the cost of being unfair to a very small number of motorists.

    A pretty classic greater good law.

    Focusing on a particular case is to look at the downside only when the upside is all the cyclist/pedestrians/children who will never know it has kept them out of the hospital/morgue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,732 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I think what would be proposed is a presumtion of liability. That just puts the burden on the driver to prove they were not at fault. It does not mean that they will be found "guilty" (for want of a better word) regardless of the circumstances.


    The cyclist is a vulnerable user. The driver bears responsiblity towards other users so the presumption is fair.

    A driver as a vehicle has very little to lose, and for some that equates with not giving a sh1t. As it stands, the driver also has the option to try to bare-faced lie themselves out of liability which also acts as a disincentive to take greater care. See the video below for an example of a driver who loses their sh1t after running into someone and tries to scream that he crashed into her car. No doubt, had she run over a cyclist, she would have done the same. Except the cyclist would be paraplegic or dead. But she might have gotten away with it.





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, a classic illustration would be the sort of motorist who would pass a cyclist with a foot or two to spare, who would not dream of passing another car that close. i guess because they assess risk when it really only pertains to themselves, to an extent?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    No you didnt.

    I fully expect you now to pull up a comment you made from the middle of the conversation and pretend that was what you specified.

    You are well capable of understanding that there are cyclists who manufacture road accidents for claims.

    You are just a troll and you will just keep going so you are best ignored from here on out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,732 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Oh. let's have a look.

    Here is my first post on the thread

    You might notice it actually mentions cyclists. Granted, juggernaut is a big word that you might not know, but if you google it's definition (do you know how to use Google?), then you will see that it says

    a large, heavy vehicle, especially an articulated lorry.


    Let's now have a look at my second post on the thread:

    Whoops. Looks like that also mentioned cyclists AND used the word truck explicitly. So you can't blame ignorance of big words for that one.


    No worries. I'll make allowances for your inability to read for this time. And if you make a nice apology, I'll try to accept it graciously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭AyeGer


    The answer imo is mandatory dashcams on all motorised vehicles on our roads. They would pick up everything from dangerous driving to accidents.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Interestingly, mandatory speed limit detection is supposed to be arriving in cars in a few months, and there's no clear standard on that, so as above, I can't see why something as simple as dashcams aren't being stipulated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I don't think so, it might record what's happening in front of you. But not some asshole of a cyclist, with headphones firmly plugged in, who whizzes up on your left side, hits a stone or gully and falls into your car. For the record, I have been that cyclist many times cutting up on the inside of a line of cars moving slowly etc but I'd know the risk and be watching carefully, take responsibility etc



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,732 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well your camera will show you were moving slowly at the time of impact and also show you didn't pass a cyclist.


    There is no need to be making up silly hypothetical scenarios to get excuses in first for being a bad driver.


    Where the camera might backfire is where the next traffic light is 20m ahead and you want to sit there for 35 seconds instead of 34 seconds so you figure that if you swerve over into the cycle lane you'll probably be able to squeeze by that cyclist ahead with a half inch to spare. Maybe. Sure lets go for it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it'd be interesting to see the payout levels for cyclists who have been knocked down vs. what happens when someone goes legal after a car crash.

    i mentioned one colleague (briefly knocked out, taken away in an ambulance) who got i think 13k. i know another lad who was knocked off his bike and was carted away in an ambulance and got i think 6k. now, i know the payout system has since changed, but i also know people who were involved in very low speed car on car collisions where the other party got €40k+. so i wonder how that compares with car on car collisions where an ambulance is required.

    also, i have experienced and witnessed collisions involving bikes where if it had been car on car, you can be guaranteed the insurance companies at a minimum would have been involved, possibly gardai too, but with bikes often the cyclists just shake themselves off and head off - and i don't think that's been acknowledged. can you imagine cyclists started acting like motorists for every collision?

    the obvious example for me is that i was knocked down about 20 years ago; sprained my ankle and my front wheel was turned into a banana. it cost the father of the kid who knocked me down €127 IIRC; i didn't take it any further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    What I would like to see is more serious consequences for fraudulent claims.

    It seems to me that the worst thing that can happen is your case being thrown out and better luck next time.

    You read the most ludicrous cases, like that IT article about Mr. Smaleckas and think where are the consequences? Fraud is actually a crime in some countries, doesn't that also apply in Ireland?

    "I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,018 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Any news on when we’re going to provide the “red light means stop “ training for drivers?

    Maybe we could cover obeying the speed limit and putting your phone away while driving in the training too?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Some fuckers got 17k from a 5kmph tip with my wife.


    Assessor knew he was taking the piss too. Immediately complained about back pain. He worked for axa. Liked to upload his videos of him being a git online. Would've taken all of 2 seconds to prove his claim to be fraudulent



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,018 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What’s the difference between licensing and test with completion certificate?

    The idea that operating a 15 kg bike doing 20-30 kmph needs to be “on the same level” as operating a 4 tonne SUV doing 20-150 kmph is slightly flawed.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Plus you only need to do a basic theory test to be able to drive which in itself is sort of madness*


    * Says the person who is a truly appaling driver and this is my level



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the insurance company paid out (not nearly that much) on a tip my mother in law had with another driver in the pavilions in swords - even though the assessor told my FIL he reckons the cars never actually came into contact!



  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    And you know exactly that had his claim been proven to be bogus, nothing whatsoever would have happened to him. It's just a matter of "keep trying it on, worst that can happen I get no money this time". Sick.

    "I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".



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