What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Now that the reality is sinking in and the pressure starting expose the cracks in the "plan" (which most of us could see from the very start), there's no more social media kudos in it for her.
I'm not surprised that it was the Indo to break the story though. They've been chasing a story on donations involving her recently too. Someone definitely doesn't like her it seems.
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According to Helen...we'll be all the richer for it
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hmm.. remember all those comments about a melting pot of cultures? Wonder how all those countries are doing now..? We want you to keep your own identity from your homeland, while sharing with us everything that's foreign about you, and maybe, our society will become less Irish as a result. Yay! (after all, assimilation of foreign culture is not the aim, but rather that it stands distinctly separate so that we can look at it in awe, and look back at our own culture in sadness because its not as rich and interesting as others)
The mind truly boggles at the short-sighted stupidity of it all. All anyone has to do is look at other nations that tried all this rubbish. The US? Messed up beyond belief with different cultural identities fighting each other for minority rights and benefits. The UK? haha.. not even worth going there. Denmark? A demographic shift that should shock everyone but gets quietly swept under the carpet. Sweden? the rise of the far right, with violent clashes in the streets, and bombs going off. And the list goes on and on.
But do we take notice? Nope. Not even slightly. Welcome! You're Irish but we expect you to retain your foreign identity. Bloody hell. It's official, our politicians are truly **** retards.
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I thought you'd need the box of kleenex for it alright going by your previous posts...
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The Ukrainian refugees are almost entirely women and children, very few men, a lot of quite educated people. I haven't met any of them so far who would be looking to work on a building site.
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Ah yeah, but if you lived in lovely imaginationland like other posters, you'd see it!!
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At least ye are finally giving up the facade of believing in integration.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59091
A large part of the promulticulturalist crowd is of the student leftie "sticking it to the racists maaaan!" kind. They've pretty much zero argument beyond that and as we've seen repeatedly they will even acknowledge that by saying there is no argument around it it just is and is inevitable. Oh and "I love seeing exotic people about the place" of course .
Still smells of sackcloth and ashes to me(organic and ethically sourced of course).
As for the "most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society", fine, so why are we importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised? As an example there isn't a single western "multicultural" nation on Earth where Black people aren't more likely to be at the lower social, educational and economic end of society. So how do you propose to change just that aspect alone of this multicultural pipedream? If you know of a way do share because not a single other nation has been able to manage it and I'm sure they'd love to hear your solutions. Well any that go beyond peace and love and prayers. "Education" is an empty solution too. And yep racism is a huge chunk of the reasons why, but that hasn't been solved anywhere else either. In Ireland even after barely two decades of this social experiment we're seeing the exact same thing playing out. Again.
From that Irish Times article above:
Sixteen per cent of African nationals living in Ireland were unemployed last year, compared with 7 per cent of Irish and 4 per cent of western Europeans living in the State. Just 45 per cent of African-born nationals have a job. More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.
Our neighbour the UK with many more decades than us of running this multicultural experiment still hasn't figured it out:
In the twelve months to September 2021, the unemployment rate was highest for people from a Black (11%) ethnic background and people from Mixed or multiple ethnic backgrounds (11%). It was lowest for people from a White (4%) or Indian (5%) ethnic background.
And it's not just about race either, because:
People from White (3.5%) and Indian (4.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the lowest unemployment rates, and people from Pakistani (10.2%) and Bangladeshi (9.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the highest rates in October-December 2021.
So British Indians were among the least likely to be unemployed, yet British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were the most likely? Same "race" last time I checked and British racists would see the same Brown "Paki". So there are clear cultural aspects at play and internal ones. Though we don't dare talk about them.
Hopes and wishes are laudable, but reality stands there looking at its feet. What's that old quote about doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result?
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Wibbs, it reminds me of the Student Union socialist types (ages 20's, 30's,40's +) that say that Communism/Marxism was never properly implemented but that WE (i.e. the ego-driven speaker and their ilk) are so much smarter and can get it to work. This time.
Or that we just need a new type of Marxism/Socialism/Communism to prevail. And that their version WILL work damnit.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59091
Well if Ireland after barely twenty years of trying "multiculturalism" out already has damned near the exact same trends of the UK(and elsewhere) after seventy years of trying the same sociopolitical experiment out, it does seem like a distinct pattern and an intractable one.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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You can't hold it against the youth for being idealistic, even though I was never into such idealism at their age, but the problem with many of these types is that they never grow out of it. There's people in their 50's & 60's who believe in these fair tales, the same type of people who mock the religious for believing in something that can't be proven or disproven, when their own beliefs have been disproven many times over. Unearned hubris is a common trait with so many people on that side of the isle.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov10 -
As for the "most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society", fine, so why are we importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised? As an example there isn't a single western "multicultural" nation on Earth where Black people aren't more likely to be at the lower social, educational and economic end of society. So how do you propose to change just that aspect alone of this multicultural pipedream? If you know of a way do share because not a single other nation has been able to manage it and I'm sure they'd love to hear your solutions. Well any that go beyond peace and love and prayers. "Education" is an empty solution too. And yep racism is a huge chunk of the reasons why, but that hasn't been solved anywhere else either.
I'd love to hear how they'd plan to remove our own lowest socio-economic class... It's not as of our own poor/disadvantaged suddenly get elevated into a new and better position, because all these Black people are pushed into such a position. I could understand, somewhat, to encourage the creation or expansion of a foreign born poor grouping, if it meant removing our own, but that doesn't happen. In spite of decades of social programmes to reduce our own lowest economic groups, very little real success has happened. Just look at Travellers for example. Very little has changed for them economically, except for a greater reliance on State supports, and marginally better living standards.
As with most thing, the negatives are swept aside as being inconvenient to the absolute truth. We're right and you're wrong. That's it. And they don't really care who suffers as a result of it. It's not as if the poor have to compete with each other for the resources made available to them.. nah.. resources are infinite.
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We’re not importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised in the first place, that’s why I made no mention of skin colour or ethnicity or culture or anything else. There’s plenty are already downtrodden and disenfranchised and anti-immigration, anti-multiculturalism measures haven’t done anything to address their circumstances. All they’ve done is make the same people even more resentful and bitter than they were already, and without immigrants and other people who aren’t like them, who else are they going to take out their frustration on only each other? Always looking for ways to differentiate themselves as being superior in some way to other people, and play the victim when questioned about why they haven’t done anything for themselves.
I don’t imagine education on it’s own is the solution, and I don’t think it’s driven by racism either to be honest. I think it’s just driven by people who elevate people who are like them, and they don’t care much for people who aren’t. It’s apathy more than anything. People here arguing to keep immigrants who haven’t the means to fend for themselves out of Europe are using people already living in poverty and misery as a means to say we should help those people first. I might think they had a credible argument if they were actually trying to help those people already, but according to your own characterisation that would make them lefties or dreamers or basically anything that you view negatively, and they couldn’t be having that, cos that’s icky.
I do agree there are cultural and internal aspects in play, and clearly there are similar cultural and internal aspects in play for all groups when statistics are used which don’t represent the true numbers of people who are unemployed or not in the labour market. Expressed the figures as percentages hides the true numbers of those who are unemployed, etc - far more people unemployed who aren’t immigrants, in run-down shitholes which Government will piss money down the drain on regeneration schemes to put money in their friends pockets than anything these schemes will do for the people living in those areas.
Simply put - the political will isn’t there, and politicians don’t care about whether these people do or don’t vote, they only care about the people who are like them too!
As for any ideas that we can’t talk about whatever, I disagree, the last 400 or so pages in just this thread alone would definitely suggest otherwise. There’s nothing stopping anyone talking about whatever they want, everyone has an equal right to freedom of expression. What they’re lacking is the ability to compel anyone to agree with them.
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One of the highest social welfare payments in Europe.
Subsidised housing.
Free education up to and including third level.
Childrens allowance and multiple other allowances for children.
CWO's for those who fall on hard times.
The problem isn't not helping those who are "living in poverty and misery", the problem is we make it too comfortable for them to stay there.
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I sort of agree with you, the Welfare State isn’t helping, and it doesn’t help anyone in those circumstances. I do think the same money that’s spent on perpetuating the issues could be better spent on providing actual supports and resources that would encourage and motivate people to better themselves.
That’s an almost Herculean task though when you’re surrounded by people who would accuse you of having notions if you tried to better yourself, because they like the misery. What would they have to complain about if they weren’t miserable?
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100%, it's very noticeable in Ireland that those who whinge most about the government are the same ones that take the most handouts from the government
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I think the problem is only going to get worse too. People once worked to work towards something, renting a house, then owning a house, building towards something, but with the state of the country at the minute the incentive to work hard isn't the same as it once was, because you work hard to get nowhere nowadays. Renting is becoming a luxury, while owning was once seen as a standard thing, and not a long shot. I know I'm personally in that situation at the minute, and I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to slave away while I'm not going anywhere. I'm sure a lot of younger people are thinking the same thing, and might decide that a life on the dole is better than current 9-5 living, and I can't really blame them for that.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov14 -
Well, everything shifted. We're entitled now. In the past, it was only really the inbred upper class who were entitled to certain standards of living or benefits. However, nowadays, the average joe is entitled to... well.. anything you care to mention. Everyone has rights. Never mind that giving rights to everyone means that someone else's rights are diminished, where do we get the resources to provide and protect everyone's rights?
I sympathize with people trying to get their first home. I really do.. but there's now an expectation that their first home will be perfect. I bought a **** little cottage, did it up myself, and resold it for a 26k profit, which allowed me to invest in a townhouse, which I kept until I could sell it again for a profit, and I'm still, at least, a decade away from being to afford the kind of house I want (not big, just well built and not in an estate). But to suggest any kind of waiting, or creeping along a ladder of success, and you'll be battered by what people are entitled to [I appreciate the market now is fcked, but even a few years ago, the same entitlement was in play]. In all honesty, I'm pretty sure I can't afford to live in Ireland long-term... inflation and government spending will ensure that taxes rocket up, and I have zero desire to live in debt for the remainder of my life (and possibly pass it off on to others). And, TBH, I'm not really sure why anyone would want to, when you can have a better standard of living elsewhere, for a lower general attack on your disposable income (and all the costs that come after you get your disposable income).
So, yeah, I can see the POV of living off welfare. I suspect quite a lot of people will work, earn an income, but need welfare supplements. That's already the case for a large number of people, and that's without looking at social housing.
Nah.. this country is quickly speeding towards a brick wall. The behaviour of the government over Ukraine and the Housing situation (for Irish people) fills me with dread for what comes next.. because likely SF will get into power. Yay. Imagine adding reunification, with the wide range of social problems, and the incredibly high long-term costs, to the rather long list of issues facing the Republic.... in addition to their extremely pro-immigration stance.
Lordy lord.
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Why couldn’t you blame anyone who thinks like that? Anyone who imagines they’re better off at the mercy of the State is entirely responsible for thinking they’re better off in that position than they are trying to better themselves. It’s short-sighted and immature, but there aren’t that many people will actually care either way.
The vast majority of people still continue to work towards something and the vast majority of people will continue to work towards the kind of life they want for themselves and their families. There really aren’t a lot of young people thinking that they’d be better off on the dole, because they look at people on the dole the same way you do - you’d be on it already if you actually thought you’d be better off.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59091
We’re not importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised in the first place, that’s why I made no mention of skin colour or ethnicity or culture or anything else. There’s plenty are already downtrodden and disenfranchised and anti-immigration, anti-multiculturalism measures haven’t done anything to address their circumstances.
Of course we've imported more. This is a plain as the nose on your face fact. Before the late 90's we simply didn't have the extra people we have now that require social assistance. We had our own, but we imported more and on top of that more clearly intractable problems around ethnicity. 45% of Africans in Ireland have jobs. 55% don't. We didn't have those tens of thousands of extra pockets to fill from the public purse 25 years ago. If we hadn't had pregnancy passports in play we wouldn't have the vast majority of those tens of thousands. After it stopped being in play, over 90% of such applications were rejected as bogus. Did something again magically change?
And as we've seen in every single other multicultural nation in Europe these same patterns are in play. The UK example today is a near mirror image of ours today. They had seventy years of this failed social experiment, we've had barely over twenty. Look to France, Germany, Holland, anywhere you care to look and the same patterns and trends emerge. It's not that we couldn't see this coming or needed a crystal ball to see it coming, it was and remains scarily inevitable. And each one of those different nations had different apporaches, different politics, different histories and yet the outcomes always remain the same. And I would say racism is a large part of it. Apathy is an easier out. Regardless of the reasons not one 'multicultural' nation has been able to offer long term solutions.
And as you point out our government hasn't been much use at fixing our existing problems and we added more and different ones on top. Look at the current debacle with Ukrainian refugees as the perfect example of that. Just this Christmas we had a worsening and seemingly intractable housing crisis and a worsening and seemingly intractable(for decades) health service crisis and were coming out of the back end of a once in a generation emergency with covid and yet as if by magic the government and too many people understandably running on feelz rather than thinkz got mass amnesia about all that and said ah sure let's invite 200,000 more people in and give them full support and no caps on the numbers. Though one of the talking heads ministers who cheerleads this suddenly rowed back on offering her own gaff. Ireland has officially "Gone full retard" and as Tropic Thunder reminded us, you never do that. But we did.
As for any ideas that we can’t talk about whatever, I disagree, the last 400 or so pages in just this thread alone would definitely suggest otherwise. There’s nothing stopping anyone talking about whatever they want, everyone has an equal right to freedom of expression. What they’re lacking is the ability to compel anyone to agree with them.
Really? Well when and where have you ever seen anything approaching the debate on this thread on RTE, or any of the radio stations or by any government minister? Never mind the number of posters on this thread who were screeching that this debate was racist and should be closed. When the 2004 referendum was happening the media and many government types in opposition were screeching about the racism of it all, even when the Irish electorate returned a vote to close that loophole in a greater percentage than either the Repeal or SSM referendums. Our media and government take the position of "nothing to see here, carry on" and any debate around the subject is left to nutters and actual right wing racists on youtube and the like. It is a subject that is off the table for official Ireland.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And yet ironically that's exactly what we will need if they are going to have anywhere to live seeing as we can't even provide enough housing for our existing natives and citizens as it is.
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I have a good friend from Russia (I know, it's a terrible thing to say nowadays) who is highly educated. He's got the usual bachelor, an advanced diploma, a Masters and a PHD. Awesome. And he's admitted to me that he only attended classes for the Bachelor, and actually failed most of his examinations. He bought his certifications by bribing university staff. In China, I was regularly approached by parents of students offering little red envelopes full of money to pass students who had failed exams, and my faculty director usually got the money, when I refused it.
Education is not the same everywhere you go. Corruption in schools & universities is pretty common outside of western Europe (I've heard stories from teachers about it in Italy and Spain). So, I'd be a little wary of the claim that Ukrainians are quite educated people, especially as any google search for corruption in Ukrainian education brings back a wide range of results.
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If the "Rwanda Plan" goes ahead, the Brits may want to send their feminists and other woke elements there as well. The locals and New Rwandese will need all available expertise to deal with their diverse needs and ever-growing cultural enrichment.
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Awesome news, this will definitely help the folks coming here
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Well, if all the minority groups are gone, who are the activists going to campaign for?
Nah. They'll stay in the UK. It takes a certain type of person to rough it out in Africa for any extended amount of time. I'm fine with Asia, which many westerners struggle with, but African cultures (in their native regions) are harder again. (and before posters strongly object, I have experience of living in both Asia and Africa, do you?)
The one thing you can rely on about the woke, SJW, or activists is that there's always another cause to champion. Moving AS or illegals to Rwanda won't resolve the issues of race (or race theory) in the UK.. so that's one area that will continue for a rather long time. Plenty of book tours, radio interviews, etc to keep them in biscuits.
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We didn’t import any anyone, and those people who were granted refugee status at the time weren’t intended to be downtrodden and disenfranchised. Direct Provision was only ever supposed to be a short term measure when it was introduced, but the numbers of refugees soared, with the referendum making no difference at all. Nothing magic actually happened, it was just the figures got fudged, as Govt departments are wont to do with all sorts of statistical data -
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/refugee-statistics
Compare that with unemployment trends for the same period -
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/unemployment-rate
It’s not a social experiment, it’s by design. In times of “prosperity”, everyone’s welcome. In times of austerity, people start pointing fingers, and that’s why I argue that it’s not driven by racism. Race or ethnicity or culture really has nothing to do with it. It simply comes down to which groups in society are the easiest targets for anyone to vent about, who do they consider a burden on society, who’s depriving them of their entitlement to prosperity? It doesn’t delineate neatly along political lines of left or right, liberal or conservative - everyone’s a target when some people feel they are being deprived of the things they feel they are entitled to.
As far as the Ukrainian refugee situation goes, I don’t have much to say about it to be honest because I’m just not that heavily invested in it, other than to agree with you that balls were dropped all over the shop, from the Government’s handling of the situation, to NGOs handling of the situation. It’s bad already, and it’s only going to get a whole lot worse. I found myself asking “what did they expect?” when I read this article the other day -
I haven’t seen anything like this thread ever on RTE or in the national media or anything else, and I’m not going to lie I wouldn’t watch it, same as I didn’t watch the Presidential posturing when Peter Casey trolled the nation. Trump-lite is all he was, and he disappeared when it was made clear to him after numerous attempts to get into politics, that he just wasn’t wanted.
I have no doubt you’re not so thin-skinned as PC that being called a racist by people who’s opinion you don’t care all that much for in the first place, that you would genuinely find them the least bit offensive, let alone the notion that you could possibly be humiliated into silence! The idea itself of you being humiliated into silence because some idiot calls you names is laughable. That’s why I don’t accept it as a reasonable defence of the idea that we can’t talk about these things. A far more reasonable conclusion as to why there’s no “debate” in the national media, and why it’s only an issue confined to the nuttier corners of the Internet, is because there’s just no appetite to pay any attention to people in Ireland who express those sort of sentiments. It just looks like it’s aping politics in other countries that really doesn’t apply in this country.
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This perceived special rules for Ukrainians is really going to start getting under people's skin.
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What?? Are we paying for their cars too? 😂💀
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