Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

donkey balls · 22-04-2022 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118943880#Comment_118943880

I am at a loss as in why is the NTA/TFI overseeing the purchase of busses and possibly dictating to DB &BE routes etc.

I've heard a few stories from lads I know in DB about NTA staff being clueless? One example was why is the double decker parked outside Dublin Castle rather than inside.

I have always wondered does the NTA have any actual people with real hands on experience,In running transport operations.

Burt Renaults · 22-04-2022 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118962585#Comment_118962585

Nobody in any position of authority within the NTA has any experience whatsoever of running transport operations. From the top down, their ineptitude is nothing short of a disgrace. The waste is truly sickening.

donkey balls · 22-04-2022 9:18pm

That's obsolete madness but then again nothing new for this country, I've often receive e mails regarding jobs within the authority.

And the salaries are mad 100k plus jobs yet they have no one with actual experience. My background is in road transport and Aviation and we have a saying that the best people to run operations from the top down are the ones who have done it.

DaBluBoi · 23-04-2022 12:18am

Wait so when considering the Electroliners, did the NTA consult Dublin Bus in any way before making the orders? I would've thought that DB would at least have some input, considering it would be them who would install the chargers for said Wrights in their depots and operate them, whereas the NTA would simply operate as a middleman

TranslatorPS · 23-04-2022 11:54am

Having two different tenders - never mind two different buyers! - for the charging infrastructure and the buses themselves is a recipe for disaster. Warsaw's semi-state purchased a total of 160 electric buses so far (if I'm remembering my numbers right; 130 artics in one tender and 30 standard-lengths in three batches of 10), but they ran a separate tender to build and connect the terminus pantograph chargers. The result? Total miscoordination of bus deliveries and charger installations, meaning that buses delivered for months already were confined to peak-time workings under 80-90 km that could be done on a single charge from the depot... Not to mention that one of those batches of 10 has pantographs completely incompatible with the rest of the fleet. On the other hand, my homecity of Radom now operates 19 electric standards and just chose the manufacturer for a further 6 artics, and all three tenders involved in here were not only for the delivery of buses, but also of plug-in garage and overhead terminus chargers. Literally the only problems so far were with energy distribution and that's not fully within the Operator's purview at that point.

The problem is of course that the garage infra belongs to DB, yet the NTA are in charge of purchasing buses since 2012 now. Short of relegating the task one way or the other I don't see any way in which this isn't going to flop teets up.

d51984 · 23-04-2022 12:46pm

I can see Clontarf getting hand me down buses for the next few years, there honestly is no space to be charging buses there, that or if they get rid of a route or two to free up space. The amount of broken mirrors on a weekly basis is madness, the shunters do have a tough job though.

I was thinking if they could use the car park across the road from the garage for the chargers and charge the buses there when parked overnight. Are the new Wrights buses for Dublin or will they be spread around the country?

mikeybhoy · 23-04-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118964889#Comment_118964889

I'd imagine with the PA/PADs there'd be some for BE aswell probably for Cork to replace the 08 VWDs and maybe some single deckers aswell

Peregrine · 23-04-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118965593#Comment_118965593

Of the 45 single-decks, 11 are for Athlone and 34 are for Dublin. The agreement is for up to 200 buses so there likely will be more orders for other cities.

Of the 120 double-decks, 100 are for Dublin and 20 are for Cork (or was it Limerick? I forgot). The agreement is for to 800 buses.

mikeybhoy · 23-04-2022 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118966059#Comment_118966059

I'd say Cork will get some as they haven't got any PADs yet I don't think they're even due any but I could be wrong.

I wonder will the NTA go for the new Wrights front like the VWDs or the old front like the SGs if that's even still possible. I read aswell that Wrightbus won't be bodying anymore Volvo products and instead will focus on their own integral products.

Hopefully the new electrics won't have the awful cab layout and steering arrangements like the Streetlites and Streetdecks.

Peregrine · 23-04-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118966805#Comment_118966805

The mock-ups have the new fronts like the VWDs.

mikeybhoy · 23-04-2022 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118966827#Comment_118966827

Do you have a pic?

dublinman1990 · 23-04-2022 9:15pm

Is Waterford not due to get any new Battery Electric buses from Wrightbus from additional orders in the future?

TranslatorPS · 24-04-2022 2:44pm

I wonder will the NTA go for the new Wrights front like the VWDs or the old front like the SGs if that's even still possible. I read aswell that Wrightbus won't be bodying anymore Volvo products and instead will focus on their own integral products.

I'm almost positive that the 2020-21 deliveries of SGs and the last few 11500s were meant to be the very last of that front - Wrights have been extending their production specifically for that order, otherwise it's gone. (Shame, tbh, I personally prefer it to the "stealth" front seen in the newest VWDs.)

mikeybhoy · 24-04-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118969697#Comment_118969697

Yeah that's what I thought but I wasn't 100%. Personally I would have preferred if they went for the fully electric BYD version of the PAs or the new Volvo MCV bodied BZL. Maybe they will try switch over to the BZL once the first 120 of the Wrightbus order are delivered considering Volvo have the best after sales network in Ireland.

d51984 · 24-04-2022 6:39pm

Translink recently put two types in to service, Hydrogen and electric versions. I presume our ones will be similar in design. Any feed back of said buses yet?

d51984 · 24-04-2022 6:41pm

On the subject, hows the 3 hydrogen examples getting on with Bus Eireann? Bit of a pain that they have to be refueled in Bluebell or somewhere in that neck of the woods.

mikeybhoy · 24-04-2022 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970759#Comment_118970759

Wonder will they go for the cctv mirrors on those. Surprised they didn't for the PA/PADs removes the cost of constantly having to replace mirrors which is probably the most common bus accident.

d51984 · 24-04-2022 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971972#Comment_118971972

I had a test drive in a Scania truck with the camera mirrors, im still 50/50 tbh. If they fail the bus has to be towed back. A lot of horror stories about them on google.

p_haugh · 25-04-2022 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970764#Comment_118970764

I believe they've recently been put back into service after a while off the road

dublinman1990 · 25-04-2022 9:43pm

It's great to hear all of the great talk out there about the NTA purchasing buses with newer technology to date. Although I may sound that I maybe rushing into things here; but are there any reasonable incentives out there for Irish commercial bus & coach operators at the moment to actually make attempts to purchase hybrid or electric buses for their own fleet in the future.

I haven't really heard anything substantial from commercial operators here about doing the exact same thing as the NTA when they buy new electric/hybrid buses on behalf of PSO operators yet.

I would assume that the demand for hybrid & electric buses within this country is a niche market at the moment. The costs for buying them are currently or will be currently a lot more expensive than buying a standard commuter/luxury coach that is supplied with a diesel engine.

bk · 26-04-2022 12:50pm

"I would assume that the demand for hybrid & electric buses within this country is a niche market at the moment. The costs for buying them are currently or will be currently a lot more expensive than buying a standard commuter/luxury coach that is supplied with a diesel engine."

I'd suggest that for the coach market, in particular longer distance coaches like intercity, etc. the technology still isn't quiet there yet.

Hybrid doesn't make sense for long distance coaches as they tend to cruise at 100km/h and have little stopping, that operating pattern tends to match poorly with hybrid operation. Hybrid does best with slow speeds, lots of stopping, traffic, like you'd get with a city bus.

Full EV coaches largely isn't there yet, you need too many batteries, which adds a lot of weight and then you have a relatively long charging time, which reduces how many journeys a coach can take per day (turn around time). There are a small number of EV coaches out there, but I think it is still an immature area at the moment.

Hydrogen coaches would make more sense, with fast refuelling time. But the issue with Hydrogen is that not only is the up front cost of the vehicle more expensive then a Diesel coach, but the cost of the Hydrogen fuel is more then Diesel, so you are hit by a double whamy. At least with EV's, they have higher upfront costs, but the "fuel" is a lot cheaper then Diesel, so the TCO can be lower. At the moment that isn't the case with hydrogen, TCO is substantially higher then with Diesel.

For a commercial operator, hydorgen doesn't make sense at the moment unless it was subsidised by the government.

Hybrid and full EV city buses make a lot of sense as the technology is largely there and meets their operating pattern well. Of course most (but not all) city type buses in Ireland are PSO operated, so makes sense to start there.

Experimenting with Hydrogen for commuter type coaches makes sense, but probably isn't quiet ready for mainstream adoption yet.

AMKC · 30-04-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971972#Comment_118971972

I was on a Go-Ahead Bus one day going up to Dublin from the Country and the driver was crazy. One of those drivers that drives slow on a straight good bit of road but as soon as it was a small back winding road was putting the foot down and ended up smashing the mirror off a tree while avoiding crashing into a lorry coming the other way. Of course none of that would have happened if the driver had of been on time from the start in the first place and drove the bus properly. He ended up having to park the bus up to get a new mirror and needless to say that was my day ruined.

mikeybhoy · 30-04-2022 11:16pm

I see Go-Ahead London have got a demonstrator of the Electroliner which is the bus the NTA have ordered.

https://twitter.com/Busoccultation/status/1520372983243722754?t=NGAbvpdUL0QmMuvYIIxSaw&s=19

Citrus_8 · 01-05-2022 1:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118998000#Comment_118998000

Could be that a schedule keeps the driver to hang on the road between certain stops longer so need to drive slower to keep the timing. Need to adjust a timetable then...

Peregrine · 02-05-2022 2:32am

New bus depots will be required across the Dublin region over the coming years as the capital’s fleet switches to electric and BusConnects is rolled out, the National Transport Authority has said.

The transport body raised the need for more facilities during a board meeting in February and subsequently hired a commercial real estate advisor to identify potential locations across the greater Dublin area. The NTA has since made moves to acquire two sites and prepared concept designs and initial cost estimates.

A spokesman for the authority said the new depots would be required in addition to the seven existing sites in order to facilitate infrastructure associated with electric vehicles, including charging points. They confirmed that discussions with the landowners is ongoing.

https://www.businesspost.ie/climate-environment/nta-seeks-new-dublin-bus-depots-ahead-of-electric-changeover-dbe78bdd?auth=login

15. Bus Depot Proposals Mr Creegan explained that the conversion of the bus fleet to electric buses will result in a need for additional bus depot facilities in the Greater Dublin Area. Accordingly, the NTA had engaged Avison Young to undertake work to identify possible locations for new depots.

Mr Kirby then outlined the process that had been undertaken by his Company to identify an initial list of suitable locations and to prepare a short list for more detailed consideration.

Mr Creegan explained that it is now planned to make further enquiries on two sites and prepare concept designs and initial cost estimates in consultation with bus operators.

The Board noted the position in the matter.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Minutes-of-February-2022-Board-Meeting.pdf

Peregrine · 02-05-2022 2:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323431#Comment_118323431

Supply of Single-Deck (Shorter Lengths) Electric Buses

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is seeking to enter into a single supplier framework agreement for the supply of single-deck (shorter lengths) electric buses. While the NTA intends to acquire single-deck electric buses from the successful tenderer who is awarded the Framework Agreement, it intends to provide those buses to the operators of subvented public transport services, known as Public Service Obligation services, to operate in the performance of those services. Those operators include Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Go-Ahead Ireland and City Direct. As part of the provision of buses to the NTA, the Supplier will be required to enter into collateral agreements with the nominated operator in relation to vehicle warranties and other matters.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/212061/1

mikeybhoy · 02-05-2022 11:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004380#Comment_119004380

The return of the imp?

DaBluBoi · 03-05-2022 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004375#Comment_119004375

Would be very surprised if they didn’t consider one in West/Southwest Dublin. I wonder if they’ll also relocate Clontarf to somewhere else

mikeybhoy · 03-05-2022 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009976#Comment_119009976

Ballymount is in Southwest Dublin I know it's Go-Ahead but still. I often thought it would make logical sense to build a large depot somewhere in the Tallaght/Clondalkin area and sell off Ringsend and Congyham Road Garages.

p_haugh · 03-05-2022 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119010707#Comment_119010707

There was plans for a depot in Grange castle back in the 00's iirc, but that plan fell through

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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