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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    And....? Yes its a poorly worded statement, but genuine question - do you really think the government is going to start forcing people? Is there any precedence or legal mechanism here? Or would they just invent one?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    The mechanism of new laws enacted.

    already is inheritance tax / CAT tax.

    Which is taxing something and resources belonging to people that has been taxed already. Multiple fûcking times.

    go the full hog and inherited property appropriation is the next step.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    What western democracy in the world has "inherited property appropriation"? It sounds made up but I'll happily cede the point if it's a thing.

    Edit: and what would the scope be of "inherited property appropriation"? Also, isn't inheritance tax and CAT pretty much the normal practice everywhere?



  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭alexv


    This ad is a multicultural masterpiece of problem solving, social engineering, and blank souled cynicism.

    There's a need for a clown and a

    straight man, and by process of elimination the female of colour obviously can't be the clown.

    So the Irish young fella gets to chivalrously play the buffoon. He does a great job: neurotic, passive, almost effeminate - he lives in a fooking lighthouse with his weirdo Irish indigenous family. He needs to be saved.

    No worries! British commercial giants, Vodafone, are going to enlist the help of the cool, calm, collected, and heartwarmingly generous immigrant (or perfectly adjusted offspring of African immigrants) to rescue the desperate Celt from an unimaginably bleak future.

    I think the ad agency call it "Paddy Rapunzel's interracial hope of reproduction".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Australia, China, Mexico, Singapore, Sweden, Israel,Serbia to name a handful don’t have inheritance tax.

    mechanisim to take homes ? They just need to make up a law, have it enacted :)

    Passed by the Dail and Seanad it’s law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    Maybe I'm misinterpreting here, but isn't having no inheritance tax a good thing?

    Do you really think any western government would get away with making up a "property appropriation " law and it would pass? That's a pretty big statement, is there any precedence, anywhere, to reference? Like anything at all as a reference point.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Jaysus, the amount of housing stock owned by councils is about to increase greatly, feckin great news for the Ukrainian folks coming here and in the longer term, when many return home, those housing units will be available for the longer term.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    China

    All land is owned by the State/CCP, so people lease the land for segments of 30/60/99 years.. but the government can reclaim the land at any time. There is no legal defence against land seizure. People can own the buildings.. but... yeah.

    So, perhaps they're not a useful example. haha.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    Would it bother you as much if they were two white, English people?

    Edit: what's really bothering you?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know anywhere in the country though that there is an abundance of housing though, the council being able to buy up more of a scarce resource will just cause more homelessness surely. If someone wanted the rise of the far right in this country then what the Government is doing as regards housing right now is the way to go about it.

    The tenants living next door to me were sent notice that the landlord intends to sell and they have had to find an appartment at double their current rent as they have a child in school locally and do not drive. The price we have heard the landlord intends to sell for is outrageously high for the quality of the house and will only attract someone who is completely desperate for a house, it would not be a price that the council would be allowed to pay for a 3 bedroom (800k) and I would expect it will just sit empty on the market. Having a look at Daft, anything well priced is snapped up asap.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Aye there's a shocking shortage of housing but that has been the same for the last few years and would remain so even if there were zero purchases by councils.

    What is a welcome development on that front, is the new of the LDA (land development agency) looking to build 2,300 houses asap. I referred to this previously, where we need an agency like the NTA(buses) or the NRA (roads) to come along and directly fund the construction of housing. Looks like the LDA are taking up that role.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    I'm living in a relatives house that's under the fair deal scheme, its been in the family for 110 years...im starting to get worried



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Taking up the role to facilitate non tax payers, when irish people needed it where were they then ??



  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭alexv



    It honestly doesn't bother me. It's actually very funny when you look at it with a slightly critical eye.

    This is just one example of a kind of advertising which has become so pervasive in the anglophone world that it's quickly becoming a cliché. It just skillfully ticks all the boxes in a way which is quite laughable.

    Thanks for your concern though. You all good, boss?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The houses both sides of my parents in my home town are fair deal properties, both are owned by widows who are in nursing homes because of dementia and have been for a while, they would be ideal to be sold and put into use as family homes, both 4 bedrooms.


    The problem is that they are full of stuff, one side has 3 grown up children who I assume will inherit between them but I cannot imagine them clearing out or selling until she dies which could be another 20 years as shes only in her 70's (early onset). The other side has no children and from what we know made multiple wills leaving things to family members that she ended up then falling out with because of dementia. Again a house full of stuff that I don't think anyone can clear out until she dies.

    There are so many unoccupied fair deal properties but so many logistical nightmares that come with them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    So your issue is that advertising is making white people look bad and that its becoming increasingly cliché, but this doesn't actually really bother you... Riiiight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Alot of truth in that but asking for a discussion on immigration wouldn't make a party far right, nor would the electorate see it like that imo. Grealish for example was reelected. Castigated by the homogenous blob that is the Irish press, voted in by the public.

    Weve very little choice in this country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Great news, just screw over people looking to buy continously, pushing up house prices for everyone. They are already doing it through agencies etc, this will make the problem worse.

    DaCor, why would a Ukrainian deserve a council house before people already on the housing list or a couple looking to buy?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    You asked for the statement and I provided it so there is no "And..?". To humour you....No I don't, I think it would definitely spark social unrest. That said, the comment in itself is shocking coming from our minister of Justice and highlights just how out of touch the current government is with the people of Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    A monumental kick in the teeth for families sitting on the housing list for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Worse for those scrimping and saving and getting ridden solid with rent. Honestly don't know how people, that are not state supported, afford rent and kids these days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss


    Thanks for comfirming that you don't actually think people will loose their homes. We got there in the end!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,976 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Vast majority of immigrants to Ireland work hard, pay taxes and contribute hugely to the country in other ways no matter their jobs or income.

    The country couldn't function without them.

    Same can't be said for the cohort of Irish natives happy on cradle to grave welfare generationally sucking off the tit of anyone who thinks you should work for a living. This, that and everything paid for.

    Blaming immigrants is absurd. Just look around you.

    The lack of self awareness at times in this thread is something else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,760 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Our elite have long since abandoned the precept that the space and resources of Ireland belong first and foremost to the Irish nation.

    That isn't a recent, radical and Far Right idea, that is a founding principle of the Irish Republic.

    Our elite have recently abandoned the reality that the space and resources of Ireland are finite.

    Not content with merely betraying the nation, they now feel able to betray logic. Not content with merely abandoning the Republic, they now feel able to abandon reason.

    All for what?

    Future careers in Brussels.

    Bloated labour pools and and markets for their corporate allies.

    Twitter likes.

    Meanwhile, the resultant suffering of the native society accelerates.

    A precipice approaches, I think many of us feel it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Well of course it's the all too usual gormless man, mature knowing woman stuff, that seems to appeal, or marketeers think appeals to suburban women who control more of the household budget. But actually it's different in one way, they cast a Black woman in the role. They're usually absent in mixed race couples in advertising, they're pretty absent in general(as Black women in the US have long noted. The Black man is feared and fetishised, the Black woman largely ignored)*. It's usually and by a long way Black man, White woman. East Asian men, women, couples are almost completely absent. They don't seem to exist or cut it as "multicultural" enough for either the advertisers or the Right On.

    There's a hierarchy of sorts when it comes to "multiculturalism", both among the pro and anti camp. Black is top of the tree, Brown gets the nod, Yellow is blink and you'll miss them and White is pretty much nonexistent. The pros get the horn for Blacker the better, the antis get the horn over being "replaced" by Black. The recent 25,000 pale faced Ukrainians seems to be confusing both sides. Even though the vast majority of non native Irish people living in Ireland before they showed up were White Europeans. The Poles alone dwarf the number of Africans living here, never mind the tens of thousands of Italians, Germans, Spaniards, White British and so on.




    *Way back in this thread there was a link to an Irish government marketing campaign for early learning for kids and the bumpf had cartoons of Irish couples and kids. No White men, No Black women.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Over half of Africans living in Ireland don't work. Their unemployment rate is over double the native population as are their requirements for social supports. Actual facts. But yeah it's the "Irish natives" that are the bigger problem.

    And yep we already had our own homegrown social welfare underclass, so importing more that have different problems on top was a good move?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    This "Ireland couldn't function without immigrants", is nothing but dramatic nonsense. It's easy to say these things too when the state have made themselves dependent on immigrant workers, as in if they all left tomorrow we'd be in trouble. The state and corporations have created that dependency not the people, and the people suffer because of it.

    I've little sympathy for those waiting on houses, but the reality remains the same, in that the state has to buy houses to house those people, leaving less houses on the market for the working man. And as you know fine well nearly everyone on this thread has more of an issue with the Irish government than immigrants themselves, yet that doesn't have the same emotional appeal, so you go straight for the "blaming immigrants" attack.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The country couldn't function without them.

    That's an exaggeration. Most skilled labour to Ireland, such as the doctors/nurses are on fixed term contracts (renewable) and most of them have zero intention of remaining here after. The same again for specialists in programming/software engineering. They're simply here because there is employment, and get paid relatively well compared to other options (in that competition is often higher for international staff in other nations).

    The vast majority of immigrants in Ireland are not providing skills or services that couldn't be provided by Irish people. They're replaceable. If every migrant left Ireland today, Ireland would struggle a little... and we could replace them easily by vetting a new batch of immigrants. Ireland is one of the most popular destinations for employment by migrants these days. So, we really don't have to go begging for attention, and letting in people who don't provide the range of skills/education that this country truly needs.

    Vast majority of immigrants to Ireland work hard, pay taxes and contribute hugely to the country in other ways no matter their jobs or income.

    Except that's not true. A large portion of immigration in Ireland revolves around low skilled labour, which typically has low pay, job security, etc. As such, their contributions to the economy are debatable, especially when you factor in the amount of money leaving Ireland to be sent home to their families. That's a rather significant drain on the economy. In addition, to the demands they place on State infrastructure like the health service, the matter of their contributions isn't clear.

    I do notice you've avoided the much commented statistic towards Africans working here, vs those who are unemployed. That's not a vast majority.

    Same can't be said for the cohort of Irish natives happy on cradle to grave welfare generationally sucking off the tit of anyone who thinks you should work for a living. This, that and everything paid for.

    Every nation under the sun has a cohort of disadvantaged, or those who game the system, which is particularly true in countries that have a welfare system. We're expected to support the weakest member of our own society.. we're not expected to support the weakest members of others societies though. There's a rather big difference there.

    Blaming immigrants is absurd. Just look around you.

    I don't blame immigrants. I understand completely why they would want to live abroad. I've done it myself. However, I do blame poor immigration policies, a general lack of interest in integration or assimilation of foreign groups, the blindness to the host of problems associated with migrant groups which have consistently manifested in other European countries but is completely ignored here, except to pass blame to the natives.

    As for looking around, you might want to do the same.

    The lack of self awareness at times in this thread is something else.

    You know... I've noticed the same thing. There's also a decided lack of debate too when it comes to dealing with the negatives associated with immigration, and instead, just like your post, there is an attempt to deflect attention away from it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Asking for a discussion on immigration isn’t what I was referring to though. I was referring to this part of your post -

    The squeezed middle (which includes many foreign people) are getting increasingly pissed off about seeing their government enacts policies and make decisions that impact them negatively or limit their opportunities. Things like own door policies for asulym seekers or buying houses for Ukrainians is a slap in the face for many people. 

    It's like they want a far right to form....

    Far-right parties aren’t going to form around the above. They don’t want to discuss immigration or multiculturalism, they want it gone, and they’ll lean on every negative stereotype about immigrants to whip up resentment of immigrants and any groups in society who according to their assessments are inferior to them and a burden on society.



    They do like most people and get themselves in over their heads in debt. I don’t watch much RTE, so I can’t remember the names of the programmes other than “Room to Improve”, but there are other programmes where they go hunting for doer-uppers around Ireland and all that sort of stuff. They do Prime Time specials on property and antisocial behaviour and the various estates around Ireland.

    Like I agreed with @Wibbs earlier - I haven’t seen any Prime Time specials on the negatives of immigration or multiculturalism, nor would I bother my arse watching them if they were on. I’m just not interested in dramatics, which is how I would characterise attempts to perpetuate negative stereotypes about any group in Irish society. It’s why I was thankful when for example Ruth Coppinger wasn’t re-elected after she swung her knickers around in the Dail in an attempt to undermine the Irish justice system. Nobody needs to see that sort of thing 😒



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Plenty of Irish doctors and nurses emmigrate on qualification. It is clearly a deliberate policy, because it has been going on for a number of years and nothing is being done to tackle this emmigration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    We got there in the end? I think you may have me mistaken for another poster, I had little or no correspondence with you. You really don't have a clue what's going on do you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 allgoodboss




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    A childish response, did you even bother to scroll back and realise your mistake? Or are you just set on trying to wind people up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    And to be clear I do not want a far right in this country but a failure to discuss things, and a constant branding of anyone who dares to be different than the status quo ( see covid as well which is ever shifting it seems), it is likely to lead to more resentment.



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They way around this was when free fees were introduced, was for the government to insist that anybody who avails of them, irregardless of course of study, to commit to five years working in Ireland, or repay the fees over ten years with interest if they moved abroad within 5 years(taken by the revenue on return from abroad). Can see a problem with forcing one graduate to stay and others to travel freely



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭bloopy


    "A monumental kick in the teeth for families sitting on the housing list for years."

    But a long way towards hitting the 2024 target announced last year for the changes to the direct provision system.

    People wondered how they would do it - well now we know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The far-right in this country are as extreme as the far-left, neither are particularly popular, so I don’t think anyone has anything to fear from either side ever gaining any traction.

    There’s plenty of constructive discussion is ongoing between the majority of people who have different political views on social policies, and it’s only really in online echo chambers that the extremists hang out expressing seething resentment towards other groups in society who they portray as an impediment to their ideas. It’s in these echo chambers their ideas are validated and legitimised which gives the impression that they’re more popular than they are in reality. Again, see the example of the People of Ireland Against Fuel Prices crowd, there was nothing constructive about it -

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hauliers-chief-condemns-dublin-fuel-price-protest-t0fkkvsln


    Everyone is pissed off with rising fuel costs among a whole range of other issues, but I don’t blame anyone who doesn’t want to be associated with people claiming to represent them, who actually don’t represent anyone but themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭alexv




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Yet the far left are continually platformed by our media



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    The whole NGO industry are certainly not moderates either, and it's no stretch to call them far left. They get millions in funding from the state every year, and have more power over policy than the Irish people ever will. The comparison is between a powerless group and a very powerful group, yet certain posters have to pretend that they have equal footing in society. The same posters like to frame themselves are moderates, yet their posting history tells a very different story.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Just missing the canard of "paying for our pensions" there, Kermit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    And the Far Right "threat" is exaggerated to the point of manic hysteria. An almost "Reds under the Bed" existential threat to the nation, parroted by the NGO Industrial Complex, the Media, and even posters on here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Any and all opposition are "far right", from literal Nazis to people who simply have a traditional view of gender. The "far right" spectrum is incredibly ideologically diverse.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I’m wondering how you’re characterising as far left that you’re claiming is continually platformed by our media. It’s an accusation that’s levelled at Irish media by either side depending upon wherever the accuser are themselves on the political spectrum. By way of example, there’s this -

    https://seanhillenblog.com/2020/02/06/miriam-ocallaghan-the-discriminating-face-of-rte-bias/

    And there’s this -

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-31006275.html

    And this -

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rte-radio-television-ireland/?amp=1


    And between them both the Irish Independent and the Irish Times have historically had their own political biases -

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Independent

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Times


    Both dwarfed in circulation by British tabloid media which could definitely not be accused of promoting a far left agenda. On Boards the piss was regularly taken out of anyone using the Daily Mail as source material. These days it’s the paper of record.

    I don’t know about you, but I’d really rather Ireland didn’t return to a time when Charlie Haughey berated the Irish people for living beyond their means, or Padraig Flynn lamented the trials of running three homes, suggesting that people try it some time, or Bertie Ahern showing a complete lack of understanding of people struggling at the time -

    'Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something,' he said.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/90808-economy/



    It IS a stretch to call all NGOs far left. There’s plenty of people working in them and for sure their politics and policies are left-leaning, but there are just as many working in them who’s politics are too far right leaning even by my standards. I worked in the area of social care for the best part of two decades, I don’t any more, I figured I’d rather avoid the politics and insincere posturing that enabled some absolute shysters, cronies and useless fcuks who were only interested in feathering their own nest.

    As annoying as genuine lefties often are, and as little time as I have for them and their ideas, I have even less time and patience for the sort of person who tries to pass themselves off as conservative when they don’t actually have any sort of constructive policies or principles or beliefs. They appear for all intents and purposes to define themselves by objecting to anything that has a whiff of the left off it.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Using something on gript as a source 😂😅🤣😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    Yeah not a great source I admit, unfortunately its among the few sources in Ireland that aren't afraid to address certain issues. Could be worse, I could have used RTE.That said have a read and tell us what parts of the article are untrue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,238 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Oh come on, you said the far left. Those two are certainly left, but your claim was that the far left are continually platformed by our media. Far left would be Mick Wallace and Clare Daly -

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40823895.html


    And they certainly aren’t continually platformed by our media -

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/meps-mick-wallace-and-clare-daly-sue-rte-41545192.html



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