Private owners rights in an apartment complex

23-04-2022 1:08pm #1

Hi there,

I have a mortgage in an apartment complex that was built just before the boom ended and the bubble burst.

The developers went bust.

A group of the apartments never sold and NAMA took them over.

A property company (we'll call them PC) bought them up and are renting them out.

This PC seems to be trying to control the complex.

When I google the name of our complex, the title of our complex appears with a pipe separating it from the title of this property company.

This is a pipe: |

They own about a third of the apartments.

It would appear to anyone googling that they own the complex.

I didn't think that type of thing was allowed?

Also, this PC seem to be dictating what the management company do.

They own the minority of the apartments but are implementing initiatives that they have in our complex.

Then the management company are trying to drive their initiatives through the complex.

Their initiatives are good but they never included the private owners in the planning or decision making.

They implemented one really big initiative in their own apartments which costs a lot of money.

This particular initiative only works when all apartments are involved in it.

The management company planned and implemented it with them without bringing it to the board or the AGM, knowing this would affect our complex

and knowing it would cause conflict in the complex.

I spoke to the management company about it and was told that it will be implemented throughout the complex.

It just hasn't happened yet.

This was not government legislation; this was a decision by the PC and the management company

to do this privately with their apartments.

I think the property management company should be held accountable for not bringing it to the AGM

and that they should pay for it if it is to be implemented.

Otherwise I am planning on boycotting any decision to use our fees to pay for it.

Do I have a leg to stand on?

JayPS 2288 · 23-04-2022 2:09pm

The owners of the apartments ARE the management company. Ideally it would be one person, one apartment, one owner, one voice.

Since PC own one third of all units, therefore they represent 33% of the “voices” and will have massiv clout in terms of introducing new rules or changing / redacting existing rules.

Hontou · 23-04-2022 2:28pm

There is something similar happening in a complex where I bought one apartment recently. I wonder is it the same complex. Is yours in Galway by any chance? I was planning on bringing it up at the first AGM I go to.

23-04-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118965796#Comment_118965796

No its in Dublin, there is a massive presence of this PC in Dublin complex's.

I'm going to start looking into government legislation about it.

I'm not sure if these PC type of companies are actually being regulated.

There should be some regulator monitoring the business relationships between the PC and property management company.

For the record; the property management company is a business that is employed by the apartment owners to 'run' the complex.

They are employed by the apartment owners through a yearly management fee. You would imagine that the private owners would be at least

informed about an initiative that affects the entire complex before it is implemented.

Hontou · 23-04-2022 2:37pm

Exactly. Let us know here what you find out. This must be a nationwide problem.

23-04-2022 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118965841#Comment_118965841

Let us know here what you find out as well.

Mrs OBumble · 23-04-2022 10:39pm

When was the last AGM? What happened when you raised your concerns?

23-04-2022 11:44pm

I didnt go to the AGM as I was so annoyed by their carry on. I thought I might get really upset.

I believe there was no decision about it at the AGM but I was speaking to management and they told me it will be going ahead.

I'm not paying for it though.

If the management company think it's fine to treat the owners like tenants, making plans and decisions behind our backs then they can pay for it. Hopefully the other owners will back me up.

If we let this go then they will keep treating us like that.

I have a feeling though that they will go along with the plans just to keep the peace. You know the usual way that the Irish behave.

I'll take it to a TD or regulator if I have to.

I mightnt have control over the common areas but I do have control over what happens inside my own home.

23-04-2022 11:44pm

Caranica · 24-04-2022 1:33am

The management company can of course make decisions on how fees are spent without involving the owners. The budget will be agreed at the AGM but there will always be discretionary expenditure.

You didn't go to the AGM, because you might get too upset? What you should have done was go to the AGM and join the board of directors. Nobody else will better protect your investment than you will.

Not paying fees will put you in breach of the contract you signed at purchase. That won't end well for you.

24-04-2022 2:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968382#Comment_118968382

This piece of work is not included in the fees. This is an extra if you like.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the management company did this behind the PC back. They would start cutting business ties with them.

Thargor · 24-04-2022 2:16am

What's being done that's upsetting you exactly?

Caranica · 24-04-2022 2:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968393#Comment_118968393

Check your contract, you may still be obliged to pay.

spuddy4711 · 24-04-2022 5:13am

A PC, not aware if it’s same as OP, has a policy of upgrading the fire protection in each of their apartments. This involves removing the hall plaster ceiling and increasing the wall height to the concrete ceiling. Their rental apartments will have greater fire protection than the owner apartments which may be next door.

Mrs OBumble · 24-04-2022 6:18am

For all you know, the other private owners may be in favour of the work being done.

If the PC has 1/3 of the votes, then it would not take many others to agree in order for a majority to vote in favour.

Have you spoken to any of them?

24-04-2022 3:28pm

I think everyone is missing the point, i already said their initiative is good.

This thread was set up because CP is trying to control our complex.

Obviously the Management company is controlled by them as well.

When I bought my home, I didn't sign a contract with CP; I'm not their tenant.

When they came to the complex I didn't sign a contract with them then either.

Even if every owner in the complex decides to buy into it, they cant make me do it.

Its my home. You don't see the management company involved in ensuring everyone has

their pumps replaced. They would tell us its inside our own home so its our responsibility.

You don't see them telling us to replace our extractor fans even though they are part of the cause of rust and mold

inside our bathrooms and they are causing actual current real time health risks.

24-04-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968475#Comment_118968475

I already addressed this earlier before you wrote the above. You seem to be more interested in winding me up than adding value to the thread.

My response to that was that I won't be paying for it.

Caranica · 24-04-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970164#Comment_118970164

Your problem is you don't own your home, you have a lease from the management company. They can mandate that you do it and if you check your contract you'll see that you agreed to that.

sam t smith · 24-04-2022 7:34pm

This thread is going around in circles.

Next time, identify like minded owners, all of you attend the AGM (or assign a proxy if unable to attend) and exercise your rights.

Starting a thread on here without attending the AGM is pointless.

pinkypinky · 24-04-2022 7:38pm

Are you confusing the managing agent with the Owner's Management Company (who appoint an agent).

If you don't go to the AGM and engage, it's hard to get support for other initiatives. If you get enough people together to form a quorum, you could call an EGM to discuss this in the proper setting. However, if this PC owns enough apartments, they'll be able to block anything they like.

24-04-2022 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971230#Comment_118971230

If we employ a management company who goes behind private owners backs then they need to be sacked.

As I said earlier if they did the same to CP; they'd be cutting ties with them

24-04-2022 8:07pm

24-04-2022 8:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971259#Comment_118971259

I fully intend on going this year.

I cant say I've been enlightened by anyone on the thread about my question. The only one who offered any relevant input was the OP who mentioned that a similar occurrence is taking place where they bought.

Mrs OBumble · 24-04-2022 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971391#Comment_118971391

Good.

Talk to other possibly like minded owners beforehand.

Caranica · 24-04-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971383#Comment_118971383

You don't seem to get it. The management company is the owners management company of which you are a member. The directors are elected at the AGM. The management company hire a management agency to look after the day to day running of the development. The directors are charged with making decisions in the best interests of the development, and such decisions do not need to be ratified by any other owners. Like I said already, stand as a director, be part of the process.

24-04-2022 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971275#Comment_118971275

.

24-04-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971630#Comment_118971630

You don't seem to get the initial comment.

The PC and the Management Company did private business with each other without informing the board or the AGM.

This business affects the entire complex.

So when that kind of thing happens it doesn't matter if you attend the AGM and are a board member because it's taking place behind your back okay.

Caranica · 24-04-2022 9:26pm

Management company or management agent? If it's the agent, call an egm and sack them

24-04-2022 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971760#Comment_118971760

Thank you!

I will ask that specific question at the AGM.

So far I have had to draw what happened out of the PC Director as the management company told us nothing.

I will attend the AGM and ask who specifically ordered the plans to be carried out.

I only know that the complex Project Manager from the management company was planning and implementing the initiative with

the the PC for almost a year without saying anything on the board or at the AGM. The PC Director told me this. I also know the Director of the management company knew about it.

After that I have no idea who gave the orders. I will ask.

silent_spark · 25-04-2022 8:18am

You ARE the management company. The management company (made up of all the owners, including you, and including the property management company that owns 33% of the apartments) hired the management agent. I think you’re not getting the responses you were expecting as you seem to be unsure of the distinction and it makes it difficult to follow when you use terms interchangeably.

25-04-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972603#Comment_118972603

Well when you use the terms like that then the answer is the management agent.

Cuddlesworth · 25-04-2022 10:43am

If they have 33% of the units, they have 33% of the vote.

From experience, turning up with 33% of the vote will pretty much decide every decision of the AGM because Irish apartment owners don't bother to involve themselves at all.

So unless you can convince a greater number of owners to turn up and vote against your out of luck.

And yeah, you can decide to not pay. And they can decide to take you to court over it and force you to pay.

Hontou · 25-04-2022 7:01pm

Nicholas Shaggy Warship, as a fellow apartment owner, observing work by the management company's outsourced contractors going on......that I knew nothing about.....I totally understand your point. But, it seems, if we don't go to the AGM's, we have ourselves to blame. Harsh as that sounds. (I am now remembering why I stayed away from apartments for decades). However, there are two issues that other posters here may not have witnessed that are relatively new to private apartment living....that you and I are witnessing. Firstly, private companies buying many apartments in a block and secondly, local authorities buying many apartments in a block. It is relatively new, and makes you feel very insecure as a single owner that bought in good faith.....and a risk that I (stupidly) had not foreseen when I purchased.

25-04-2022 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975882#Comment_118975882

This is a key point now for all apartment owners. I’ve had mine since 2001, and has been running well, but owner representation at the AGM has been limited. Now a new block has been built and purchased by a single investor. It’s only about 10-15% of the size of the existing development, but with only 10% of existing owners typically turning up to an AGM, that one investor already potentially has a majority and can do anything they want. Myself and others will be trying to mobilise other apartment owners, or we may find ourselves having to foot the bill for work we don’t agree with, or see the very well managed sinking fund (which was enough to cover all fire related works) being run down inappropriately

26-04-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975882#Comment_118975882

Well I was at the AGM that happened before the work was carried out

I know for sure that it was never mentioned at that AGM.

I was also a Board Director the following year and it was never mentioned on the Board and I was very active and at every meeting.

The first time it was mentioned was after it was actually implemented by PC.

Residents were wondering why there were workmen going in and out.

There was a flyer posted through doors to tell residents that there would be work going on and to basically tell them not to trip over worksheets.

There was no explanation or meeting called for residents/private owners

The first meeting about it was at a board meeting where the Management Company agent tried to push a survey through without

explaining all the facts about it to the Directors.

I rejected the survey as I wanted to see the rules and regulations about it and I said it should be brought to the AGM before we make decisions.

I had a number of arguments with the board and management agents as a result of that.

In my opinion it shouldnt have been brought to the board at this stage as we hadnt got a clue what it was about. I thought it was a manipulative move to get the survey completed before anyone could complain at the AGM. We would have the results of the survey and we would be stuck with a new standard without anyone actually having a notion about it other than the Management Agent and PC who already planned and executed their work on the PC apartments. That planning went on for almost a year beforehand behind our backs.

So, I didnt go to the AGM after that but I was told from an owner and the management agent that there was no decision made about it at the AGM due to Covid.

So it is still pending.

Funny how they thought it was perfectly fine to bring it to the board to make a decision about private owners getting surveys done etc but PC never even mentioned it on the board when it came to the decision about them.

This is why I have the problem about it.

pinkypinky · 26-04-2022 7:49pm

Well, that puts a different slant. If you were a director and work was carried out without your knowledge, then the managing agent has questions to answer, and probably needs to be fired. Directors do have control over that.

mrslancaster · 26-04-2022 9:11pm

..

Caranica · 26-04-2022 11:04pm

The management company has the right to demand that any works done without permission from the management company are reversed and and damage done repaired to reinstate the original finish where any common areas are involved. I would imagine this would include reinstating internal ceilings. Any such works should have to be approved by the directors, the management agent should not make decisions on such a scale unilaterally.

27-04-2022 12:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981018#Comment_118981018

They only carried out work on the PC apartments and only took a sample of the common areas.

So legally PC probably didn't do anything wrong.

But the Management agent planned and implemented it without our knowledge knowing that it only works when its done for all apartments and common areas.

When I complained to the management agency, they said it will be carried out in all apartments.

Its just a matter of when.

My argument will be that I am not a tenant of PC or a council dweller and if you want to implement something that affects the entire complex without involving me in the plans or decisions then don't expect me to pay for it. I am their employer, I pay their fee and I expect to be treated equally unless the decision is made on the board or at the AGM.

The management agency did something similar with CCTV. They went off and planned where the camera's should be located with PC and never asked myself or the other Private owner for input.

When I looked at the plans, most of the proposed cameras were covering their apartments which are located in a certain part of the complex.

But we would be sharing the cost of the cameras and the maintenance forever more.

Same thing with the callouts and the children wrecking stuff in the common areas; they are mainly tenants of PC and we are stuck paying for those repairs and callouts.

27-04-2022 1:37am

Just regarding withholding fees, that will cause you problems if you ever want to sell. A solicitor for any buyer is going to ask to see that all fees are paid and up to date.

The only way any buyer would go through with a sale involving outstanding fees would be if you dropped the price by the amount owed as they would be liable for it as the new owners.

Just something to consider.

27-04-2022 6:52am

Am I missing something here? The PC have only done upgrade work on their own properties, and nothing to anyone else’s/common areas. The proposal to extend that to other apartments has not been acted on, presumably until OCM members get a chance to see/vote on this, what is your issue? Has it actually cost you anything?

Complain to the PC about their tenants damaging common areas, the same way you would complain to a single unit LL if their tenants did it.

Caranica · 27-04-2022 7:37am

You really need to get on the board of directors so you can call the shots and be involved in decision making. Like I said before, nobody will protect your best interests/investment better than you.

27-04-2022 7:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982303#Comment_118982303

Boards of Directors do not call the shots, they serve on behalf of the members of the OMC. Expenditure like to op is referring to would have to be put to the members to be voted on, I suspect what the op is unhappy about is that the PC owns a block of units that can sway any vote. But that is the nature of shareholding, if you own enough, you get to influence decision making. It is up to owners who object to unite and vote against it, if they don’t turn up at AGMs, then they can’t complain that their voice isn’t being heard.

JimmyVik · 27-04-2022 8:35am

My Dad used to own an apartment in a development with about 100 apartments.

He thought that the management charge for his apartment was way out of whack as his was a 1 bed, own outside door apartment, so no lobby or lifts, and was being charged the same as 2 and 3 bed apartments with lifts and lobby and extra doors.

He got himself on the board and found that current board members were all owners of the 3 beds and one of them was involved in the management agents too. He asked that they redo the charges for everyone in the development fairly and met with much resistance. In the end the went to the next AGM and sttod up and resigned and listed out all of the corrupt goings on by the current directors. There was pandemonium im told.

The end reult was fairer charges foir everyone and a few people took on the agents role too and fired the existing agents.

He sold the apartment about a year later so dont know how they got on after that.

seamus · 27-04-2022 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982535#Comment_118982535

This one of the biggest problems with OMCs. That in theory the directors are supposed to work in the best interests of all owners, but the reality is that they care only about their personal situation.

A development I used to live in but have an ear on the ground to, discovered a material/structural issue with a number of balconies in a certain type of unit. Because nobody who owned one of these units was on the board of directors, they elected not to take the cost of repairs out of the common sinking fund (where it should come from), and instead voted to set up a separate fund and add an extra charge onto the owners of these units only. The balconies were owned by the OMC and not the units, so afaik this was not legal.

Any road, they literally cut the balconies off the side of the building and sealed up the outside doors, to avoid any insurance claims until the repair fund had enough money in it. All because the directors didn't have one of those units, so they didn't give a sh1t.

In a similar vein, all of the units were using bin sheds for waste, and there was always whinging about the waste management charges. It was incessant. Many units are apartments and duplexes (and so have nowhere to put wheelie bins), but the majority are houses. The board of directors, being all house-owners at that time, voted to allow houses to choose their own waste provider, and lifted the cost of the bin sheds entirely onto the apartment & duplex owners. Which increased their fees considerably.

It's one of the reasons I'll never again buy in a development with an OMC. The corruption and pettiness is off the scale. I'm sure a lot of this stuff is in breach of company law, but who is going to do anything about it?

pinkypinky · 27-04-2022 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982650#Comment_118982650

I really don't think it's accurate or fair to say that directors are only interested in their personal situation.

I'm a director of my OMC and I work for the good of the whole development. It takes time and effort but it's worth that to protect where I live.

27-04-2022 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982650#Comment_118982650

Posted by someone who never served as a Director of an OMC I suspect. Just to clarify, issues with MUDs affect everyone negatively if there are structural problems. In every MUD I have been involved in there is a distinction between units based on size, own front door, design (apartment or house) etc, I would suspect many people think a distinction between those with an without balconies related to the maintenance is not unfair as only those with them enjoy their use, you don’t let your neighbour who doesn’t have a balcony come in and use yours whenever they want, do you?

JimmyVik · 27-04-2022 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982973#Comment_118982973

I think his example was that only some of the balconies had issues, but they wouldnt pay for them to be fixed out of the sinking fund as theirs were ok.

Nobody is saying it happens with all OMCs, bet there are a lot of cases where the directors do not have the best interests of the whole in mind when making decisions.

Caranica · 27-04-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982535#Comment_118982535

This doesn't sound right to me. The apportionment of the development budget is set out in the deeds/documents signed at purchase. To change them world require agreement from 100% of the owners. Now maybe the unscrupulous directors ignored that and set their own split, but legally changing how fees are apportioned is next to impossible. We've had countless legal opinions on this that all say the same over the past 18 years.

JimmyVik · 27-04-2022 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983406#Comment_118983406

All very well. But in this example maybe nobody ever got to know (or realize until it was shown to them) what was actually happening. People doing sneaky things can be very ... well, sneaky :)

Caranica · 27-04-2022 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982318#Comment_118982318

I was probably too flippant in my language but the directors should have control over what goes on in the development. Expenditure does not need to be approved by an AGM.

Private owners rights in an apartment complex

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