Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

The 2020 election? I think things have changed utterly since the 2020 election.

wouldn’t it be grand if Ukraine could have an election now to sort out their political landscape and live in peace and elect a more suitable government. Wouldn’t it be grand if there was political debate in Ukraine about zelenskys political performance and other candidates could put their credentials on the table. Hard to do politics when the bombs are raining down and your women and children are being raped by invaders.

Are you suggesting that because zelenskys support was on the slide that now justifies letting the Russians take over?

Yanukovich ,who was infinitely more corrupt than Zelensky ,was overthrown by people laying down their lives in mass protests in 2014. Russia want to turn the clock back to before that and worse.

Nobody suggesting that Ukraine was a utopia of opportunity or freedom but they made a decisive decision in 2014 to turn their politics west towards becoming a modern democracy. And now they are laying down their lives en masse for that outcome.

The concern-trolling never ends. To address:

Yup Ukraine is corrupt, they know it, we know it, it's an ex Soviet satellite state. They are trying to get away from that. Can take a country generations to get out of endemic corruption.

Zelensky won the vote by a landslide in 2019, but indeed has not been doing well politically since. He's turned out to be an excellent war-time leader.

People are being blown to bits in the largest European war since WW2, but this is what's bothering you.

Don't expect consistency from the Putinists. USSR fans one day, Imperial Russians and craw-thumping Orthodox believers the next...

"But the corruption in Ukraine"

I think Ukraine will become far more westernised after the war and move totally out of the Russian sphere of influence and if they join the EU, this will be hugely accelerated (which should eliminate a lot of the corruption too, as the EU simply won't allow it).

Zelensky has appealed for a face to face with Putin since the first days of the invasion,

So it doesnt signify much ,

I don't know enough to comment on the state of ukraines defences ,

Ukraine has a corruption problem for sure, but been actively and genuinely working to fix that for some time, with positive results seen even in the Corruption Perception Index, especially since ousting Yanukovich.

Secondly, given the pro-EU policy direction set in the Orange Revolution, and then temporarily stopped by Putin's disinformation war and meddling including installation of a Russian puppet Yanukovich, then finally resumed in 2013 Euromaidan, where pro-EU direction was again reconfirmed, it is a must and a necessity for Ukraine to keep working on systematic elimination of corruption, because this is required by EU ascension process (the so called EU "aquis").

Now, of course as everyone apart from anti-Western pro-Putin trolls, Putin's dinsinformators and Putin's useful idiots knows that Ukraine is in a corruption county division compared to Russia which is in Corruption Premier League. Russia is compeltely corrupt top to bottom, is not a democracy but a fascist kleptocratic state where cirruption and theft are the front and centre of its foundation, it makes no progress to eliminate corruption but instead escalates and consolidates corruption more and more. It is not comparable to any country in Europe, at least, and probably even the world, apart maybe from some tinpot dictatorships in Africa. Comparing Ukraine and Russia is hence pointless and a red herring, typically driven by Russian disinformation operations. It has no merit whatsover.

The bottom line is that Russia is a kleptocratic state run by organized crime, it's a rogue state organized on exactly the same principle as mafia and the head of the mafia currently is Vladimir Putin. The mafia is now directly threatened by democratic Ukraine showcasing that democracy, however imperfect and corrupt, works much better than mafia kleptocracy, which then could endanger the mafia foundation in Russia by Russians realizing that Ukrainians fare better under the democratic system and demanding reduction or elimination of kleptocracy in Russia which would descrease the golden gravy train of billions of $$$ that is currently syphoned out everywhere in Russia by this mafia kleptocracy.

What is not understood by most in Europe is that Ukrainians are historically individualist people, unlike Russians. Russians have been historically collectivist and fatalist - "They [the elite] are powerful, we [the plebs] are powerless", "We are many [and can do anything as a swarm]".

Ukrainians were therefore always struggling for freedom and against imperialist and collectivist oppression for centuries.

Hence European democratic direction is much more natural for Ukrainians than for Russians and will prevail. Autocratic and/or collectivist system as the Russian one is unnatural to Ukrainian culture and will always be revolted against. This can be seen in Ukrainian history throughout.

Good article explaining this:

Іntricacies of individualism and collectivism: Why Russians understand only force and have never been Ukraine's fraternal people | Ukrayinska Pravda

If Putin or Russia done the Unthinkable not that they have not done anything horrendous or unthinkable so far bit if the Killed President Zelenski with say a rocket strike on Kiev would this mean WW3 I wonder? I think Zelenski is doing a great job and is a hero. If Russia killed him I would not have a problem with the west and Nato going all out on Russia. Destroy it they are all animals especially does in charge not humans in that country at least not many humans anyway.

Was there local elections in the Russian occupied Donbas region ???

But the majority of Ukrainians aren't pro Russian or anything like it , just like in the other thread people claimed Ukraine is massively divided between east and west which is bs for most part .

You need to address your tools of analysis.

You seem prepared to put us all in the way of a nuclear exchange where the only winners will be the cockroaches and possibly one or two members of the "elite" who,in their subterranean accommodation have planned to live on their stores of corned beef and tins of tomato soup for the next 3 or 10 years while the rest of us are barely able to fertilise the soil.

I never said launch a Nuke. If Putin does that he is endangering his Country too and would just lead to the destruction of his country. More reason to stop him now and his army too.

Yes it would be risky but it's a risky strategy for putin if he were to launch a Nuke too. It is called MAD for reason and Putin is using this fear against the west. We have to stop letting him dictate what and what he can not do and to bully us into fear. It is time him his cronies and his army were stopped and held accountable for their crimes.