Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

income tax fraud

  • 26-04-2022 11:05am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭


    Just wondering does any have any experience of these kind of issues.

    Just say Mary sets up a creche but on the quiet, she looks after say 10 kids 5 days a week, takes payment on the sly. someone reports Mary for income tax fraud, when confronted Mary says I just look after the kids because I felt sorry for the parents who I know and I don't take any money for looking after them. Would Revenue have to prove money was changing hands or how would such a case go in court?


    Another 2 examples would be a retired carpenter Jim, seems busy enough, always in different people houses doing carpentry work, when confronted, he says he was just bored and does a bit to keep the boredom away, no money changes hands according to Jim.


    Benny seems to be busy dropping people off around town and even further afield, it is well known he is an illegal taxi in his local town but Benny insists when confronted by Revenue that all the people he carries are all friends of his, even though he seems to have around 50 regular customers, Benny says no money changes hands.



    How would these kinds of cases go in court or would they even get to court?



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Revenue would find all three answers absolutely implausible and look further.

    They do not need to go to court to dig further - very few cases like this go to court, settlements are usually made well before that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    In your experience would Revenue go after the likes of these 3 individuals if reported or is it the bigger fish they are after?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭cml387


    Revenue would usually assess the tax due and send the bill.

    Continuing to work in the shadow economy without making returns would eventually lead to prosecution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭cml387


    They go after everybody. An ex colleague was running a small cosmetics business from home, and was caught for tax. It wasn't a huge settlement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Good to hear. I suppose the best thing is if they get them once and they continue to work cash in hand they can be caught again.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They'd go after them. Nothing can be considered too small to enforce or else nobody would comply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Interesting because I reported someone last summer and they are still operating, they are busier than ever now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭cml387


    You are assuming they are still non compliant. Maybe they regularised their tax status.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    They are operating in an area where you need a Licence, they definitely don't have the Licence required.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They may not have been contacted yet (or at all). They do not act on every report. They could not act on every report.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Licence compliance is not a matter for Revenue.

    Childcare - council for planning compliance if it breaches the limit (six children), HSE/Tusla if it breaches their limit (five, I think). Their own kids don't count.

    Taxi services - NTA

    Carpentry isn't licenced.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I assume revenue don't check if they're properly licenced (unless they're operating a pub or something)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    I know but I was just replying to the question that they were now properly licenced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Maybe just send another email detailing the tax fraud. The person in question is making a lot of money at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,718 ✭✭✭whippet


    I do remember hearing of a lad doing window cleaning in a small town. He used to do all the shop and pub windows once a week.

    one of the pubs was having an audit done and there was a couple of years worth of notes in the toll of small cash payments to the window cleaner .. with his name on it

    the auditor checked with other pubs and shops in the town and eventually I believe there was a six figure settlement made by the window cleaner



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Sometimes revenue might go after a sector so 'bank' a pile of complaints on a particular trade then go after them all in one go. They did this with teachers and grinds a few years ago. These tend to hit the headlines a bit more so discourages that sector as a whole, in comparison to doing random hits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The license is probably nothing to do with revenue. Maybe they are ax compliant. Maybe they were fined.

    You've really no idea what their accounts look like



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 812 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Being an informer is not something to brag about.

    In Ireland, there is a special part of hell set aside for informers.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    I couldn't care less about that, this person is taking food off my table so I will report him non stop until something is done about it. I wasn't bragging by the way, just stating a fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    The licence is just relevant because you need a licence to do the job this person is operating, so no licence means they aren't paying income tax because it is illegal to operate this kind of business without a licence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,330 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    Report them to the licensing authority too so. They might be quicker to act (assuming they want people to only use licensed practitioners)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Don't worry they have been reported to every possible organization going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭paul71


    That is factually incorrect. Illegal income is taxable under Schedule D Case IV of the income tax acts. You can actually be a criminal and be tax compliant and you can operate a Licenced activity without a licence and be tax compliant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭CrookedJack


    Not the Ireland I live in. In my Ireland we don't support people stealing from the common purse just so they can get more and work less.

    In my Ireland people who refer to informers going to hell are viewed as accessories after the fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 624 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    There is a historical dislike for informers who sold out their fellow countrymen to our imperial overlords.

    Not quite the same thing but .........



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    It can be very annoying to see a business operating under the radar, undercutting legit businesses on price while topping up their own income on welfare or by just not being tax compliant.

    Nobody likes a busy body who goes around reporting everyone but if someone is destroying your business by operating illegally, only a wally wouldnt report it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭cml387


    If they are in business, are they VAT compliant? The VAT inspectors guys don't mess around



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭CrookedJack




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Exactly what is going on, this person gets social welfare, council house etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Grow up. Leave the morals of the playground behind you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    It happens a lot OP, cash in hand jobs are not unusual for small domestic jobs and nobody bats an eyelid. Years ago, someone doing a 'nixer' meant the householder got the job done a lot cheaper but Idk if that's still the case. The exchequer always loses out.

    I know a hairdresser who operates from home and only takes cash and theres no difference in the price they charge to what a regular salon charges. Childminding in a minders home is nearly always cash in hand with little difference in price. Same for any domestic service like gardening, painting, plumbing, carpentry, any building work. I know someone who paid a bill in two parts, half with an invoice charging vat and the other half in cash notes to a solicitor. Its widespread.

    Not sure how it can be changed, afaik there is no legal obligation to give a receipt so cash payments leave no records.

    How Revenue ever find dodgy book-keeping is a mystery, unless someone reports it, and generally people don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    I know it happens but people definitely get reported for it. I know of hairdressers working from home, legit barbers who were watched by Revenue etc who were reported for it and they all had to pay a bill to Revenue.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,420 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    It's not a mystery, they have a system called REAP, if you have done something irregular you will show up on this. Enquiries are made and if not satisfactory, an audit follows.

    I know a company director that was audited, one way they proved he had undeclared income was the wife was paying for the shopping with cash, how did they know this? All the transactions were recorded on her dunnes and tesco clubcards.

    Post edited by rob316 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    They rarely go to court.

    If the Revenue have their doubts about the income you are reporting, the deductions you are claiming, or anything else, they can ask you for more information, they can audit you, and eventually they can issue an assessment based on what they think your income is. If they think you have been unco-operative with investigation and audit they will pitch this high, naturally.

    You can pay the assessment and the matter goes away (until next year).

    Or you can appeal the assessment. You don't appeal it to a court; appeals go to the Tax Appeals Commission, which is independent of the Revenue, but is staffed with people who know their stuff. If your appeal is unsuccessful, you have a further right of appeal, but only on a point of law. If the issue at stake is, basically, how much income you earned, that's a question of fact, not of law, so if you are assessed on the basis that you earned 10k more in income that you reported in you tax return, and the Tax Appeals Commission upholds the assessment, that's the end of the matter.

    Lots of cases go to the Appeals Commission, but they are cases where there's a genuine dispute about, say, whether you are entitled to a particular deduction, or whether a particular provision in the Taxes Acts applies to your case, or should be interpreted the way the Revenue interpret it. Where people have simply been concealing income they usually fess up to this at the investigation stage because, once you've been rumbled you're better off putting your hand up and settling as quickly as possible. The longer you string the thing out the higher the interest and the greater the penalties. Your chances of successfully concealing the income throughout a Revenue investigation/audit, with the wide powers the Revenue has to look at your bank accounts, your lifestyle, your purchases, your assets, etc, are close to zero.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    You're getting your authorities all mixed up here. Revenue are mostly only concerned that someone is declaring their income and paying the relevant tax on it. If they are claiming social welfare entitlements that they're not supposed to, Revenue aren't looking for that. I don't want to say they don't care, but it's not their jurisdiction. In that case their main concern is the fact that they're paying less tax than they should. They will often co-operate and refer cases to the Dept of Social Protection, but it's not part of their main competency.

    Licencing, they really don't care about at all unless Revenue are the ones who issue the licences. If someone is working on gas boilers without an RGI cert, Revenue couldn't care less so long as they're paying tax.

    If you believe someone is committing social welfare fraud, report them to the DoSP.

    If they're carrying out a licenced activity without a licence, report them to the relevant authority for that licence/activity.

    Revenue have probably done their bit; that is, checked that this person is filing tax returns, and left it alone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I think this has been answered, revenue can conduct an investigation/audit as they see fit, make an assessment of tax due and pursue it for collection through use of the sheriff etc.

    Is there evidence that this individual is not paying taxes to the collector general that he should be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    I think "taking food off my table" is a bit excessive.

    People who are "legit" can claim all their expenses like diesel, phone, tools and many other costs and write against any profits. This stuff costs the cash guy a lot more.

    Personally I see a lot of people operate a blended model, cash jobs and legit work.

    The other thing about being cash only is you exclude yourself from a lot of juicy jobs, like if its a taxi he can't get work for the HSE, or an airport etc, places that pay top dollar.

    Same with a window cleaner, you won't be working for, as an example, the HSE or Irish rail if you are a cash operator.

    Reporting an all for cash operator won't get you far with revenue, there is nothing by way of accounts for them to pour over and investigate.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭paul71


    VAT not an issue, OP seems to belief a lire cence is required. Sounds like childcare in the persons own home. A VAT exempt activity and TAX free up to a value €15,000 per annum. Really you cannot make assumptions about a persons status. Perhaps they are earning and equally you have "NO" idea if they tax compliant or not, but is certainly true is that revenue will never tell you if they have investigated or not. The only way you will know that is if any settlement reached exceeds the threshold for publication on the tax defaulter list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    I very much doubt this cowboy has ever filed a tax return.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭paul71


    I have seen lots of tax returns filed by all kinds of characters, the simple answer is that cannot know and will never know if he has because it is entirely a matter between him the revenue and and perhaps his tax agent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Pinoy adventure


    Your acting like a child.

    mind your own business and get a better paid job if he is taking food from your table.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭feelings


    I bet you wouldn't have the same attitude if it was a politician doing the same...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    If you're having a childminder come in and you are paying them more than €40 a week then you are legally obligated to register as an employer give a contract,and pay PAYE and employers PRSI, have payslips etc. It's actually completely **** bonkers now.

    It looks like the powers that be simply do not want people to have children with the way they've gone about pricing and regulating the childcare industry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,307 ✭✭✭Xander10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,718 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    It clearly is my business, you would know that if you read the thread.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What do you think of Paul Begley who was jailed for importing garlic without paying the appropriate tax?

    What are your thoughts on Bertie Ahern, Ray Burke or Pee Flynn?

    What do you think about the perception of various multi-nationals not paying their fair share of tax?

    What's the difference between them all?



  • Advertisement
Advertisement