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Is it time to join Nato

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    #1682
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118979556#Comment_118979556

    Finland spends five times that figure and also has a conscript army with a large reserve. 


    Interesting prospect tbf,


    if we are to join nato,(assuming uk is thrown out),we should also conscript and make military particiapation mandatory for all aged 18 to 65



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    #1683
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980882#Comment_118980882

    National service , Sweden has a decent model too

    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #1684
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981029#Comment_118981029

    Switzerland aswell,they refer to it,as armed neutrality......theres a certain merit,in having a national service too imo,even if its small arms and sabotage (bombing bridges etc),would do more to defend us,than entangling in forgien wars with nothing to do with us



    Ive heard plenty lads screaming saying we need debate on neutrality,while noone speaks up the obvious solution



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    #1685
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭indioblack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980882#Comment_118980882

    Why would you assume that the UK will be thrown out of NATO?

    National Service in Ireland? Good luck with that.



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    #1686
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981548#Comment_118981548

    I certainly dont think we should be in an military allience,with a country occuping a part of the island


    Serious beta, bend the knee sh1t there



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    #1687
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭indioblack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981564#Comment_118981564

    I doubt that would be an acceptable precondition for membership.



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    #1688
    Ramona Wide Kale
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ramona Wide Kale


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981564#Comment_118981564

    well some peoples response on here is that Ireland dosnt need to join nato because the UK will come save us



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    #1689
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982068#Comment_118982068

    Personally, whilst I'm sure the UK would respond, that's not the reason for thinking Ireland joining NATO isn't needed. More that it doesn't do anything beneficial for Ireland except put a target on them and mean they have to spend significantly more on defence.

    Now it might make sense to spend more on defence, but don't see that doing so because of NATO membership gains Ireland anything. There are more useful things that money could be spent on.

    If Ireland was an island in the Mediterranean or Baltic then it would be a different matter, but being surrounded by friendly NATO nations and a massive ocean with other NATO nations on the far side makes it kind of pointless spending money.



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    #1690
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980467#Comment_118980467

    Russia and China are not militarily allied and China have been going out of their way to stay out of this mess. They are not about to engage with NATO to help Russia.



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    #1691
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982393#Comment_118982393

    I'd only see China sitting on the sidelines and waiting to pick up the pieces afterwards of whatever is left. They have no need to get properly involved.



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    #1692
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981564#Comment_118981564

    Yeah, but you leave the defence of the island to them. Complete deferral and abdication of responsibility, a beta attitude.

    I suppose you also support the Triple Lock, giving the UK a veto on the use of the Irish Defence Forces.

    If you want a definition of beta, your approach certainly is it.



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    #1693
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982728#Comment_118982728

    There is no one to defend Ireland from at present. Join NATO and there then is other nations who are hostile towards NATO so what would Ireland have then gained?



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    #1694
    65535
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭65535


    Why are posters so confused - We are already in NATO - the Partnership for Peace part.

    Being in 'full blown' NATO does not equal have to spend all your money on military equipment - the proof of that is Iceland - they are under the NATO umbrella - they rent out Keflavik Air Force base to the US Air Force - who are not allowed off base and that's it.



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    #1695
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982886#Comment_118982886

    There was no one to defend Ukraine from, until Russia invaded them.



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    #1696
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982904#Comment_118982904

    Did you miss the bit where Russia borders directly to Ukraine, they were previously part of the USSR, there are/were many Russian speakers and supporters in Ukraine etc.


    Other than the UK with some major shift in their politics, who could possibly have designs on Ireland?



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    #1697
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982994#Comment_118982994

    We live on an island, we have borders with everyone.

    Shannon Airport, Shannon Estuary, control of internet cables landing on the west coast, our future offshore wind energy hub at Moneypoint gives Ireland some strategic importance as a staging point, particularly a small region.



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    #1698
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983050#Comment_118983050

    Think you are somewhat underestimating the difficulties of a mass seaborn invasion there versus the pretty meagre reward.

    Iceland can afford to have no army for pretty similar reasons.



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    #1699
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983125#Comment_118983125

    Iceland is frozen half the year, very different.

    Edit: If Shannon is so useless, why do people complain about US flights stopping over?



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    #1700
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983195#Comment_118983195

    Its not useless but its hardly worth invading over. Its a convenience for the US flights. I mean, its just an airport.



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    #1701
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983050#Comment_118983050

    Maybe back when countries could sail around the world in wind powered boats and take the other county by surprise and it would then take days / weeks/ months for the country being invaded to mobilise and respond.



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    #1702
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983290#Comment_118983290

    Pretty much think that the Russians or anyone could take Shannon in half a day.



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    #1703
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983297#Comment_118983297

    Yes, and then what happens next?

    Do they just stage a sit in at Shannon? Is it part of a further invasion of the whole island? What do they do with Ireland once they have it or is it part of an attack on the UK / NATO?

    How do they protect their supply lines and where are they? Flying over all but two NATO countries, sailing around a bunch of NATO countries?



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    #1704
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983324#Comment_118983324

    Are you adopting the beta approach that NATO will come and save us? Who is going to kick the Russians out of Shannon? They haven't attacked NATO so there is no reason for NATO to attack their supply lines. No point in anyone offering us military aid as we aren't capable of accepting it and doing anything with it.

    Just establishing a mid-Atlantic base, and will offer us "assistance" in return for allowing them to stay.



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    #1705
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Just establishing a mid-Atlantic base, and will offer us "assistance" in return for allowing them to stay.

    So now Russia is being invited in to setup in Ireland in your scenario?



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    #1706
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Are you adopting the beta approach that NATO will come and save us? Who is going to kick the Russians out of Shannon? They haven't attacked NATO so there is no reason for NATO to attack their supply lines.

    What is the purpose of this Russian attack on Ireland? Its not for the natural resources, its not to protect Russian citizens, its not for the Irish industry.

    The only possible reason for invasion of Ireland is the subsequent invasion of the UK. But its a monumentally stupid way to go about doing so as you've taken out nothing of the UK defenses in doing so, but left yourself a second amphibious assault to carry out* whilst your forces are out in the open within easy range of the UK forces and all your supply lines exposed across the North Atlantic and down beside Norway at best.



    * That second assault being in an equally daft direction as its to capture some big hills in Wales, or via Scotland maybe, and still you've gone knowhere near the main targets in the UK.


    Edit: You also have to remember that we're talking about a country which can't managed to organise proper supply lines for an invasion of their next door neighbour even after months of building up forces at the border and having a second neighbouring country helping out a bit too. No country, except possibly the US, could mount such an invasion over an ocean and also around the wrong side of a continent. Would be like the US invading Madagascar whilst the whole of Africa and South Asia and Australia is armed equivalent of NATO and opposing them and their supply lines.

    Post edited by robinph on


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    #1707
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983409#Comment_118983409

    You still haven't explained how we would repel such a Russian invasion? We have no allies, we have no defence.



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    #1708
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983739#Comment_118983739

    Why wouldn't the UK respond? It would be idiotic for them not to, and presumably Ireland would be OK with asking for help with repelling the invaders so no reason for the UK to sit back because of the risk of upsetting some people.



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    #1709
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983739#Comment_118983739

    How would we repel an invasion form the UK? Its frankly more likely

    There is no point in throwing out hypotheticals with such an infinitesimally small chance of happening - they are just not worth worrying about. The only reason for anyone to invade Ireland is as part of a greater European invasion and even then it really wouldn't make much sense to do it first.

    So the answer to the question is we couldn't and I don't care.



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    #1710
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The point as which someone bothers to invade Ireland, NATO would no longer exist as it would have lost whatever war was happening. So being a member of it really doesn't matter.



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    #1711
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    We border a NATO member country. If nuclear weapons are deployed (see Putin speech today) we are in big trouble. Being friendly little neutral Ireland won't matter a damn.



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