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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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    #41132
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,662 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000547#Comment_119000547


    This war is a direct consequence of failing to address the geopolitical realities in eastern Europe.

    The actions and crimes we see flow from that.

    Said it before, I'll say it again - it is not a good idea to have NATO up against Russia's borders.

    It's dangerous.



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    #41133
    strathspey
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭strathspey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    But taking that perspective implies that the West should respect Russia. Other than gas and oil I'm not sure that Russia has anything to offer the West. I mean have you ever seen a Russian restaurant on your travels outside Russia, have you ever bought a manufactured item labelled, Made in Russia'. The West's only respect for Russia comes from their have nuclear weapons. I think we in the West are quite comfortable with a new Cold War II wall being built, enclosing Russia where they get on with being Russian and the rest of the world carries on in a globalised environment.



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    #41134
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    And what about the people living in those 'buffer' zones?

    We have seen what Russia will do to non NATO countries?



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    #41135
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118999829#Comment_118999829

    I never once accused you of lying, nor would I. I did say your position is based on the side you believe in. That you believe all Western media is manipulated(by the CIA apparently) and your media sources aren't. Your position is pro Russian/Slavic/anti NATO/West, or very much slanted that way. You elevate NATO alone for being bad actors, warmongers and destroyers of the environment and culture and completely ignore Russia's hand in the same things down the years. Though when you say NATO you really mean America, just like in the Cold War Soviet Union really meant Russia. I did find it interesting that under only the slightest pressure to back your position up, you very quickly went to wishing atomic death on me(and London for some odd reason).

    I am 100% against this criminal war started by putin and his unimaginably rich fellow criminals. He's a crime boss at the head of a country. However I also see how and why Russians and others believe their side in this and broadly support putin, or at least how and why they did before putin started dropping bombs and murdering Ukrainians. After the Soviet Union fell criminals took over with the help of corrupt politicians and raped Russia and the Russian people over and over again for over a decade. These criminals made themselves multibillionaires and the West/the US either stood by because of an attitude among some of "the Russians deserve it", or simply "not our problem", or actively helped these criminals stash and "clean" their blood money. Wall Street and especially the City of London and Swiss banks would be many billions poorer if the Soviet Union had never fallen.

    Then putin comes along. He picked his obscenely wealthy criminals, kept them more in check and got rid of those not friendly to him and some of that dirty money started to filter down to ordinary Russians. The Russia he took over and the Russia of last year are very different places. The changes on the ground for most Russians, particularly in the western cities are positive and Russians can see that and they credit putin with that. They look at America who also elevates the obscenely wealthy(and always has) while the working man and woman is squeezed more and more and the poor grow in size, where needing a life saving operation can bankrupt you and quite understandably come to the conclusion that they're hardly a society to admire or copy. And I would agree with them.

    Then we have Ukraine. The same Western media and US government reports were talking about the still major issues with corruption and Far Right elements in that country before this Russian invasion started and have now done a near 180 degree swing in their reporting. Ukraine was a corrupt, extremely nationalist, backward state in the corner of Europe with a nasty civil war in the East backed by both sides. Zelensky was seen as being better, but not by much as he blocked opposition voices and was backed by the obscenely wealthy and IMHO with his TV show on his oligarch mate's TV channel ran the best, most original political campaign in modern history. This doesn't let the Russian side off though. Not by a long shot. Because Ukraine was a much more corrupt, extremely nationalist, backward state in the corner of Europe when it was run by Russian backed rulers. In the last elections the Far Right couldn't even get one seat in government. If putin and Russia want to stop "nazis", why didn't they invade when their "nazis" and even moe corrupt criminals were in charge?

    Add in the long standing Russian fear of invasion and outside influence, both of which putin pushes to his advantage. Add in America being foreign policy dicks who kick off wars on Brown people for BS reasons like WMD, but mostly about power and oil. And yep I can understand the Russian people's position. They're 100% wrong backing this obscene "special military operation" on Ukraine, they deny obvious holes in their arguments and propaganda, but I can see how they get to this point of believing it.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #41136
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    But there is no American or Nato bases near or close to Moscow ,there is no Nato army 30 different countries with 30 different militaries Willing to work together in defense of each other ,if anything Russian bases are creeping closer to Europen countries and not the other way around ,

    Your talking about a buffer ,so give them Ukraine ,then they will want Moldova , Georgia,parts of Poland , they will then want a buffer for kalingrad so how many more countries are you willing to give up to placate Putins Russia

    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #41137
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,401 ✭✭✭Homelander


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    NATO is a voluntary defense alliance that was formed based on Soviet aggression. Anyone who joins has to opt in, as a sovereign nation, it's not like the US is brute-forcing applications.

    NATO would never, and has never articulated the faintest wish to, attack Russia. Putin knows this. The whole affair was a smokescreen to attack, conquer and integrate Ukraine to sate Putin's empire lust which has failed miserably.

    Now Russia is clinging to it desperately and pathetically. There are Nazis in Kiyv, then Nazi's were widespread across Ukraine, and now finally the entire world is overun with Nazi's who have assembled to destroy Russia.

    There is no, and I mean absolutely zero, credible view that starts with "Well you have to see it from Russia's point of view"

    They have every right in the world not to want NATO on their borders. They do not have the right to invade, ethnically cleanse, brutalise their soverign neighbor Ukraine for choosing that path.

    Putin has scored a massive own goal here. He's brought NATO closer to his borders than ever before, set the Russian military back decades probably, and showcased, to the world, how pathetically feeble and medieval the Russian military actually is.

    NATO, and the US, cannot actually believe what they are seeing. Russia is performing about 10 rungs below their worst case estimations in conventional warfare.

    Comparing it to the Cuban Missle Crisis 50 years ago is senseless and irrelevant whataboutery. It's not 1962, it's 2022.

    The past is an entirely different beast, literally and contextually, and to pretend it's a direct equivalence is wrong.



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    #41138
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,948 ✭✭✭circadian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000475#Comment_119000475

    Fake, the map is from a different reddit post in 2020.



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    #41139
    shillyshilly
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    so Ukraine gift themselves to Russia?



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    #41140
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,662 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000633#Comment_119000633

    You don't seem to read. Never once have I justified Russia's actions but I can see the reasoning.

    The notion that NATO can be on Russia's borders and we are not heading for war is lunacy. It's crazy.

    It has nothing to do with Russia or it's neighbours. It's just a strategic reality.

    As regards defence both NATO and Russia should jointly guarantee the defence of buffer countries.

    Ukraine has already accepted it can never join NATO.

    In relation to Crimea - you're back to the 2014 overthrow of the Ukrainian government. That's whole a different story.



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    #41141
    JoChervil
    Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    And what about these buffer countries, why they should accept constant threat from both sides? They have a right for safety and joining any bigger group guaranteeing it. Why only Russia should have this comfort? Because is big?



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    #41142
    Akabusi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Akabusi


    Russia gave up their right to buffer States when they started to invade said States.



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    #41143
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,411 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000666#Comment_119000666
    ukraine-meme.jpg




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    #41144
    Curious_Case
    Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000030#Comment_119000030

    Thank you for taking the time to reply.

    I think the focus on global warming relates mainly to sea level rise, I don't believe the human species is in danger at all.

    When you say "complex organisms will become extinct" I think you mean "synthetic molecules will break down".

    I have never heard of nano-particles causing human life to be impossible. / Pollution obviously causes illness and a reduction in living standards.

    You're correct, the planet will re-balance itself after any catastrophic event, provided it remains in the Goldilocks Zone.



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    #41145
    Curious_Case
    Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case





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    #41146
    Dufflecoat Fanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Dufflecoat Fanny


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000324#Comment_119000324

    Assassination is the only viable option at this stage. The Russians have shamelessly brought us to the precipice of extinction. They shouldn't be afforded any conventions we enjoy.



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    #41147
    Curious_Case
    Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000704#Comment_119000704

    So much suffering could have been prevented for the cost of a few bullets, some poison, or a paid killing.

    Hopefully a declaration of war incites the Russian hierarchy to finally act.



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    #41148
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000534#Comment_119000534

    Again the cuban crisis being used to try and explain some sort of equivalence to the situation now...

    Question: Were NATO or the USA about to send nuclear weapons to be stationed in Ukraine?

    The answer is no, so there is no equivalence to the Cuban missile crisis as much as posters with some sort of agenda try to make out there is.



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    #41149
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Russia refused to put it's big boy pants after the fall of the USSR. It's tragedy is it spent the 20th century running a failed experiment and then gowled up the start of the 21st by falling into the hands of a circle of former KGB creeps who divvied up the spoils of the nation.

    Russia has, and has always had, a severe political culture problem.

    You could draw a mind map of concentric circles of power. Those at the centre are empowered like god's, and the further you get from the centre, incrementally you are less trusted and the sh*ttier you get treated.

    I'm not even talking about wealth inequality that we see in other countries. The further out in the circles of power you get, the more you are likely to be unpersoned and dehumanised.

    Read What Is to Be Done? by Tolstoy - it has always been thus.

    Countries bordering Russia instinctively know this. Places like Finland, Poland, Ukraine, they are sovereign nations with a living memory of being abused by the imperial impulse that still dominates Moscow.

    NATO is an institution that garuntees a future that they'll never have to tolerate that abuse again. Which is why the Kremlin hates it.

    Russia needs to grow the f*ck up. It may well cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of young Russian men, but the growth needs to happen - for Europe's sake and for the world's sake.



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    #41150
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,662 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000746#Comment_119000746

    Seeing the world as it is and not some land of make believe somehow implies being "nefarious"? Good one.

    The fact is Russia exists. It's always been a corrupt dysfunctional country and always will be but it has it's interests to protect as well like every other country.

    Those interests collide most in Eastern Europe.

    Those countries are sovereign but they are only sovereign to the point where due regard has to be given to Russia in their decision making. Not because they want to but because they have to. It's the geopolitical reality of the whole region.

    No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that.



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    #41151
    mikewest
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭mikewest


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000781#Comment_119000781

    Russia needs to grow the f*ck up. It may well cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of young Russian men, but the growth needs to happen - for Europe's sake and for the world's sake.

    This absolutely!



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    #41152
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000080#Comment_119000080

    I would lose no sleep whatsoever about Russian military being killed off in this way. They know what they're there for, to invade and subjugate a neighbouring state: to kill, rape & pillage. The more body bags sent back to the motherland, the sooner this horror show will end.



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    #41153
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,662 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000774#Comment_119000774

    It's obviously not like for like. Different times. The US has Aegis destroyers out of Rota in the Med for goodness sake. Could strike quickly, with ease, any time.

    However, the principle is exactly the same.



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    #41154
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,662 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000806#Comment_119000806

    All smaller countries give regard to bigger neighbours in their decision making. The same as we do with Britain, for example.

    Nothing unusual about it.



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    #41155
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users Posts: 10,799 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    I really think at this stage, the only thing that will prevent this from escalating further is to really make it clear to the Russians that they will be annihilated should they should to keep going.



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    #41156
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000790#Comment_119000790

    The rubber has hit the road now. And Russia is finding out how powerful it is relative to its neighbouring countries and the alliances in the democratic world they have built.

    This is the logic of Russia trying to dial back the clock playing 'great-power' politics like the 19th century, and they are paying with the lives of their young men, with national presige, and with their economy.

    Poland, Finland, Ukraine etc: These are not fringe parts of an empire any more. They are peer countries that have chartered their boats away from the Kremlin. Russia, fellow travelers in the West providing them threadbare intellectual coverage need to recognise this and grow up.

    Europe is not going back to 19th century sh*tbaggery no matter how Russia is trying to drag us back to it. We've said no. NATO is a reality just as Kremlin paranoid creeps are a reality. Eastern Europe has chosen the former. Time to grow up.



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    #41157
    zv2
    Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭zv2


    Kazakhstan; https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1520692009480372225?s=20&t=Bsw8Zxhx6UsErt229BaaKA

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



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    #41158
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,401 ✭✭✭Homelander


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000825#Comment_119000825

    Having regard for is a world apart from "bends over the table for fear of brutal invasion, occupation and cleansing".

    Ireland has made tough decisions that the UK wasn't wild about without having to worry about being annihilated as a nation state in response.

    There is everything unusual, unacceptable and flat out evil about Putin's actions, to try and badly dress it up as "weeelll Ukraine has a part in this" is pathetic.



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    #41159
    firemansam4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000813#Comment_119000813

    But its not the same at all. Like you correctly say, times have changed. And back then it was an existential threat to the USA.

    This is completely different, the only threat is Ukraine turning away from Russias sphere of influence and looking to the west.

    Putin was not going to have that and made up these non existant threats to Russia of NATO expansion (When NATO already borders Russia anyway) as an excuse to force Ukraine back under their sphere of influence by military force.

    Of course you have fools who believe this NATO expansion threat sh**te and repeat it on forums like this.



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    #41160
    shillyshilly
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000813#Comment_119000813

    merry go round argument....

    Nukes are in Kallinigrad since the limited onshore Aegis project went live in Romania and Turkey (although, arguably they have been there all along)..

    Russia are using arguments in the SALT agreements (which they no longer adhere to) to justify this..

    Then you have the hypocritical argument of them having hypersonics which can penetrate any current defence system.... yet they piss and moan about NATO defences that are only supposedly good enough again non hypersonic targets...

    Russia just want land, and will use any excuse to justify it... simple



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    #41161
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,345 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000746#Comment_119000746

    Simnple answer. Because John Mearsheimer says so.



This discussion has been closed.
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