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Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Maybe. I know people (not CS) who had flexi and remote working long before the lockdown.

    They now have no flexi and are being told they have to come into the office. All the hard work to get where they were now wiped about because some drone has their head in the 1950s and wouldn't know how to measure productivity if they tried.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭laoisgem


    That's mad, surely that can be challenged?

    I might also be biased as I've always had to attend the office as the section I work in relies on files coming through the post that can't be done electronically. As strange as it may sound to some people in 2022.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    We've all seen the framework(s) for developing remote work policies and they seem reasonable. Has anyone seen an actual public sector policy yet? I have seen one for the local government sector. Haven't worked in local government myself but know some people in it.

    The hybrid work policy is packed with "gotchas" which can be used to refuse hybrid work. One is a stipulation that the proposed remote work location must allow immediate attendance at the office if required. It's not clear if that applies to certain staff (e.g. those who have to respond to emergency situations in which case it is reasonable) or everyone (including back office and non emergency staff). Given the anti remote work tone of the document, it may well be the latter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    How do you get permission from the employee's housemates to appear in the photos?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    if you cut my hours down to five a week, id still happily tell you i didnt have time in the day to respond to a 137 post boards account suggesting civil servants needed keystroke monitoring and random picture surveillance.


    cmon folks lets work smarter not harder



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    The hybrid WFH with the proviso that attendance is required when necessary is the worst of everything, in my opinion.

    What good is WFH if your day(s) isn't guaranteed in advance. It makes it tricky for:

    Commuter tickets

    Childcare

    Other caring roles

    Volunteering

    5:30pm rounds of golf

    if you're not sure what time you will be home at, you're very restricted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,586 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    For everyone who wants certainty of days so they can plan (this is definitely me!), another staff member wans to chop and change every week based on: I am a bit tired after the night out / I am getting a delivery today / I was up late last night with the kids - these have all been used, which is tricky to manage. I think staff need to accept it can't be total freedom to come and go as you please and there needs to be some structure for everyone's benefit including planning and scheduling meetings etc and ensuring team members are in the office at the same time (and not different days) to facilitate team work.

    it is demands, a sense of entitlement and divides like this that make is problematic to management.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,543 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    If hours are going back to 35 per week, it would make sense to incorporate the option to work a 4 day week based on those hours into a blended working policy. The option of having a 3 day weekend is progressive and will likely lead to more productivity and overall job satisfaction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    A 4 day week will never happen in my career. And i have 24 years left to work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭HGVRHKYY


    I don't see how it couldn't be done like they're saying though, if everyone was allowed to decide to apply for that as a job sharing pattern so the 35 hours can be worked over 4 days instead of 5. And if they split half of the group of people who opt for this to work Monday to Thursday, and the other half Tuesday to Friday, it would mean there's no outright disruption to the full 5 day working week



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you are only going in 2 days a week that's your commuting cost cut by 3/5 that's a bigger discount then you ever got with commuter tickets.

    The childcare and caring I don't understand. Since you can't do that and work at the same time.

    The rest of it seems to be a problem with scheduling. You can't do any of that while you are working either.

    I assume people will have fixed days in the office and that will only change if there's some scheduling conflict. Which should be rare unless a line manager or employee is taking the proverbial. If that happens then whomever is doing it is deliberately breaking the agreed days.

    I suspect some people will have a problem with it because they don't plan things and do things on a ad hoc basis. No one can plan around that chaos.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    Other than commuter tickets I don’t see what you mean with those points (assume the golf is a joke!)

    Childcare and other caring roles shouldn’t come in to it as you shouldn’t be doing either during the work day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well you can't allow that level of chaos. Even if you have someone with genuine scheduling issues someone suck or a last minute change of plans in their other commitments there are other types of leave or local arrangements to facilitate that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,586 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Totally agree and a lot comes down to it being that in reality, a lot of staff don't actually plan or manage time at all, and it has really been shown up with hybrid working. Sadly there seems to be a reluctance of staff to develop capabilities around this and they prefer the "sure I'll stick on the laptop, check the email and decide what I might do today depending on what I feel like", attitude. It's very difficult as a manager to try and get buy-in for strategic priorities, deliverable and get people into a more planned approach when they have been working like this for 20 years+ and are very fixed that they are not going to change for anyone or anything now.

    Even when managers are proactive and provide clear direction of "I want you do do x type of activities in the office where it make sense and X type of activities at home where is makes most sense, and that's why we need structures and planning", it falls on completely deaf ears and staff think you are the crazy one and micromanaging etc.

    Hybrid working has really shone a light on poor working practices and systems that have gone on for years imo, and the challenges with hybrid are about these, rather than hybrid itself



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The childcare issue has already been explained on numerous occasions. Who do you think is minding children while people are commuting? WFH is a massive help for this - but if employers are going to order staff into the office with little or no notice on days they are supposed to WFH, WFH is pointless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's not just staff. There are lots of managers who are incapable of any kind of planning. They have a huge problem with any form of remote working.

    Micromanaging is an entirely different problem. Though will also cause a problem for remote working as it's much harder to micromanage remotely.

    Seems ironic if we are suggesting that ineffeciencies, poor planning and micromanaging takes a priority over remote work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Nothing will work without a schedule. That's a given.

    Wfh will help with shortening the childchare requirement. But it will be only be for 2 days.

    You're actually saving on 3 days. Which is still better than pre lockdown.

    Unless you are only comparing it with 5 days wfh which isn't an option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Howlin took pleasure in it.

    is the civil service still a good employer? Is there a risk with less benefits that the talented will move on and the passengers will stay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,036 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If there's a possibility that your housemates might be able to see your screen or hear your calls, then your at home setup is not suitable for remote working (outside of emergency circumstances like a public health emergency).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's a daft argument. Most people don't have web cam in the office. Not entirely sure why they need one at home.

    Other than for meetings maybe.

    Most people have spend years using phones and emails in the office to people they've never seen in person.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Would you not challenge that, yourself?

    A well-reasoned business case explaining why the process of sending files through the post isn't secure, risks data breaches much more than electronic systems, causes delays, is far less sustainable, etc., whereas an electronic system would be more secure, faster, efficient, sustainable, etc. Not to mention, would allow remote work, reducing risk if there's another lockdown, breakdown in business continuity, etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    four day week option will happen within 5 years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,461 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If the lockdown didn't make that business case for them nothing will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Yup, that's taking the piss. Last job I was in, you got a monthly rota saying when you were in the office and when you were WFH. If you couldn't work in the office on a day you were scheduled to be in, you had to take leave. (This was during stricter lockdown and we didn't want teams mixing, so swapping wasn't an option). Current job, you get a weekly rota, sometimes two weeks together. In fairness, staff are asked to indicate if there are days they particularly want to WFH or work from office, and they're accommodated as far as possible. If someone wants certainty cos of caring roles or childcare, they're accommodated and the rest of the rota works around that.

    Management need to step up in the situation you're in and do their job, and have a word with Mr/Ms Entitlement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Seriously?

    Things you can do while validly WFH include dropping kids to school or creche, collecting them from same, calling to elderly parents or other relative you care for to heat a meal for them - all sorts of stuff like that which will fit in to the time immediately before or after the working day and just wasn't possible when you also had a commute; not to mention what you can do in the suburbs in an hour's lunch break.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    My point is that employers seem to be expecting rigidity when it suits (set days in the office) and flexibility when it suits (employees to be available for immediate attendance on the days they are wfh) This is certainly the impression I get from the policy I've seen.

    I've worked in PS organisations which had a reactive, firefighting, whack a mole way of operating. People were so used to it that they didn't see anything wrong with it. If that is the culture in an organisation, hybrid working is dead in the water as staff won't be able to plan for anything.

    The poster KaneToad was clearly talking about the type of logistical difficulties that arise from not knowing what time you'll be home at - not about minding children during work time as you and another poster assumed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So WFH is only for better off people who can dedicate a room to it, and not for those who share accomodation?


    What if your kid's school or your elderly parents are nearer your office than your home? I know people who chose to put their kids in schools near work, so they were dropping kids off on their way to work. When Covid and WFH hit, they were left doing the work commute twice day while WFHing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    set days in the office and wfh the rest is such a step forward from 5 days in that i can hardly believe its the subject of complaint, i think maybe a few of ye might want to have a shake of yere heads a little



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I read this week of one department already considering it, but I cant remember which one.

    (eta) its Dept of the Environment (Climate and Communications). :)




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    (For some reason I can't quote directly...)

    @Mrs OBumble - If there's a possibility that your housemates might be able to see your screen or hear your calls, then your at home setup is not suitable for remote working (outside of emergency circumstances like a public health emergency).


    @AndrewJRenko So WFH is only for better off people who can dedicate a room to it, and not for those who share accomodation?

    I raised this specific question at one of our information sessions as we had a number of queries from younger staff in particular who are housesharing and were very anxious about this, and was told unequivocally that if someone's home setup was not seen as an issue during the pandemic, then it would not be used as justification to deny someone WFH after the pandemic.



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