What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Gotcha. I sympathize with you about the Irish being overrun by foreigners for the past little while, and for the veneer of American influences. I am just hoping Ireland can hang onto the massive HQ welfare that has landed there. In a very real sense, the synthetic conditions for comfort that the country enjoys now has everything to do with the incoming hordes of nationalities on its shores.
The jet-setting and the opportunities that came along with the liberalized economy, also brought other consequences, of which, a vari-melanin mix of people. That, in the eyes of some is probably among the top negatives. Oh well…
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The most worrying part of multiculturalism for me is that we don’t have a secular school system. There’s big trouble brewing when you end up with schools for each religion, that needs to be stamped out right now.
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In a very real sense, the synthetic conditions for comfort that the country enjoys now has everything to do with the incoming hordes of nationalities on its shores.
Why? That makes little sense to me.
The Celtic tiger was fuelled by the EU, and American multinationals.. not any major infusion of a foreign population. The same with subsequent booms in Ireland, as the companies that encouraged such prosperity were hiring Irish people, not bringing in large numbers of foreigners. It's only in the last few years that we've seen companies, especially tech companies, seek to bring in specialists from abroad.
Also, you might want to look at the demographics of the "incoming hordes of nationalities" because few of them have really contributed to the economy, or introduced anything that would have improved the standards of living of Irish people. In fact, the case could be made that standards of living in Ireland would be higher if we could remove certain sections of migrant groups due to the demands they place on welfare, and services in general.. I'm not making the claim, because immigration has some positives, but the thrust of your post is leaning heavily towards an extreme.
Just a very strange claim to make.
The jet-setting and the opportunities that came along with the liberalized economy, also brought other consequences, of which, a vari-melanin mix of people. That, in the eyes of some is probably among the top negatives.
Huh? Oh, I know what melanin is.. but... what? You really should consider just how little intermixing of ethnic groups is happening.. although considering that it's been covered already on the thread a few times, you'll likely ignore it once again.
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Christian religious schooling is already on the way out. People are awfully impatient to bring about change without considering what's going to replace it. In any case, we're going to see private schooling pop up to service those with different religious backgrounds, because their rights are protected.
At least with religious schooling, there was less scope for the woke/PC culture to get firmly established, but I guess that's the point in removing religious schools.
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Jesus Christ 😮
This is probably something that slipped out that shouldn't have, and I'm sure he'll be in trouble for it. It's not often that the truth ever gets to see the light of day, but it's nice to see it when it does.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov7 -
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I think we should follow the French system. We’re already getting Islamic primary schools - once the numbers are there for secondary schools it will get more serious. Imagine living on a low income and having no choice but to send your daughter there because it’s the closest school
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As opposed to the Catholic schools that number in the thousands?
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You'll find little to no Catholic schools in Ireland that force religion on children. Nearly all teachers nowadays are very secular and if Catholicism was being forced upon their teaching, we'd certainly be hearing about it. For the most part we're well beyond that, whereas Islamic schools I'd bet teach religion in a more "factual" sense. You have to pretend, as many like yourself do, that we're still in the early 1900's, where religion is forced on the masses, but it's not, and you know that too, so why bother being so dishonest?
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov11 -
Transgenderism is not a culture its a state of mind so discussing them here is not in keeping with the opening statement. I am sorry to hear that they are copying America 's radicalism in childrens education but it is up to a parent to remove their child and home school if they feel there is a political agenda in the school. I know if my children were being sexualised before i think is necessary i would home school them and take that power away from the government agenda. Any educated parent would also do the same, a parent knows a childs needs and the sexual education is not for outsiders to teach it is the duty of the responsible parents.
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My two children attend a Gaeilscoil and are almost ready to attend an all Irish speaking secondary school. I see a contradiction in your post, we complain at the lack of integration yet you want Gaeilscoil's to have an Irish only policy? There are several children at our school that are of African decent and a few others from other non EU countries. I think the parents of these children are to be commended for their efforts to integrate.
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You'll find little to no Catholic schools in Ireland that force religion on children.....
..... if Catholicism was being forced upon their teaching, we'd certainly be hearing about it.
We are hearing about it, you may have missed it
Catholic school discriminates against atheist student
The many, many, MANY reports of children being forced to attend Catholic teachings
Bishops fighting to keep admission controls to allow for preferential treatment of Catholics
Other shenanigans down through the years
It's a very real problem that the constitutional rights of so many are being ignored by an institution of this size which such a scope as the education of the children of the nation
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My point is that there would not exist the conditions for immigration and that the inverse, rather the emigration of Irish people would continue unabated, if these large companies had not set foot in the country. These companies may not have employed foreigners to the tune that they are now in the beginning, that is a moot point, but it was bound to happen, as they grew their operations.
As to your point about intermixing; give it time. You are looking at things from a very shallow base and short term perspective.
Of course, if Ireland received hordes of unskilled, unmotivated people and dished out all the conveniences at your nation’s expense, that would be another matter. That may be the case, but there needs to be numbers put in, and the mass of spongers be damned if that is the case. But in my estimation, when people migrate to another country, the motivational aspect is a plus to the host country. You don’t build countries like the US, Canada, Australia with people who sit on their hands. The mix of people is actually less relevant than the numbers that populate the country in relative terms. The mix is just an added fizz. Lol
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A link dump, that I've to shift through to counter your position? More cheap tactics. Even looking at the first few, none of them are about teaching religion factually to children like I mentioned, and more surround Catholics gaining preference over non Catholics, which I don't really see a massive issue with seeing as they own said schools, but all the same that has nothing to do with anything I've said. One of those links is full of a teachers anecdotes, anecdotes that sound dubious at best. Example:
I could begin by talking about Finn, a six-year-old boy in a Catholic school in Athlone who was recently told by two classmates, within earshot of his teacher, that he “had to believe in God”. He is from a non-religious family. An inclusive school would teach that there are people with different beliefs, but Finn’s school regards respect as a one-way street. “My kid has to sit in class and listen to them teaching religion every week with no option to be somewhere else for it”, Finn’s mother writes. Westmeath has 74 primary schools but only one of these is non-religious, Mullingar Educate Together NS.
Catholic fundamentalist 6 year olds? If you believe that you'll believe anything.
On top of all that you've managed to find a handful of articles which proves my point, as I'm pretty sure that I said "for the most part we're beyond that". You've found a handful of examples and none of them really help prove your point, and only lend credence to mine.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov12 -
Bizarre how you conclude from articles which refute your stance that your stance is correct.
You complain that by providing several articles I'm link dumping and then you say I didn't provide enough.
If this is the standard......
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They don't refute my stance, because my stance was never that Catholic schools don't give preference to Catholics. I never once said that, yet you're trying to use that as the core point against my position, yet I've never even took that position. You're putting words in my mouth, which is what the desperate do when they are losing an argument.
My initial point:
You'll find little to no Catholic schools in Ireland that force religion on children
Nothing in any of those articles, at least the ones I looked at, refutes that. Catholic schools in large don't indoctrinate children along religious lines, while Islamic ones often do. None of this is complex, all of it is clear, yet you've to pretend that it's not in order to try and stay in the game.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov13 -
Ahh well, I don't have a problem with religious schools that don't push their faith on to those not of that faith. That's easily guaranteed under a series of regulations and review boards. In my own Christian school, there were agnostics, Muslims, etc who simply opted out of the religious forms.. and there was no pressure on them to conform to being Christian.
The problems with religion tends to exist outside of the school, in a wider sense, in society.
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What has Ireland lost regarding exposure to Irish culture?
I'm getting a rather strong sense of revisionism about what Ireland was really like in the past.
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My point is that there would not exist the conditions for immigration and that the inverse, rather the emigration of Irish people would continue unabated, if these large companies had not set foot in the country.
That's different to what you said previously, though... but let's go with it. Immigration to and emigration away from Ireland has continued throughout the last 30 years, and you'll find that people still left Ireland during the Celtic tiger to work elsewhere. These companies coming to Ireland, didn't change that.. especially since the actual numbers of people employed by these companies were relatively low compared with the overall population of Ireland, and generally those companies limited their operations to certain geographical parts of the country.
You're exaggerating the impact these companies had on actual employment, and their relationship to immigration/emigration.
These companies may not have employed foreigners to the tune that they are now in the beginning, that is a moot point, but it was bound to happen, as they grew their operations.
It's not a moot point. It's an inconvenient point because it doesn't support your claims.
As to your point about intermixing; give it time. You are looking at things from a very shallow base and short term perspective.
A very shallow base? I've lived extensively abroad... Sure, China is a bad example, but how about Germany? Decades of encouraging mass immigration, and interracial marriages are still quite uncommon. Where is this paradise where large numbers of ethnic groups have mingled, and produced children?
Also you do realise that there are many cultures which actively discourage interracial marriages? Not western cultures but foreign ones.
Of course, if Ireland received hordes of unskilled, unmotivated people and dished out all the conveniences at your nation’s expense, that would be another matter. That may be the case, but there needs to be numbers put in, and the mass of spongers be damned if that is the case. But in my estimation, when people migrate to another country, the motivational aspect is a plus to the host country. You don’t build countries like the US, Canada, Australia with people who sit on their hands. The mix of people is actually less relevant than the numbers that populate the country in relative terms. The mix is just an added fizz.
You really are oblivious to history, and how countries become successful, aren't you? It's like as if all the bad **** that was done in a country has been removed so that you can paint the place as a success.
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What makes you think you contributed more or had a less negative impact on the countries that hosted you compared to the scope of immigrants coming to Ireland?
Are you that much more productive, or did you realize you needed to reintegrate your homeland because you had missed opportunities through lack or fulfillment or else?
What I don’t get from you and others like you in this thread, is the need to disparage the whole breadth of immigration to Ireland.
Mind you, I don’t get those who give a wholesale picture of disappointment for Ireland, and they tend to be the same.
I loved Ireland when it was more mono-cultural but am much more amenable to what I consider an improved version, one with better opportunities and a wider offer of goods and services that results from the presence of extra-nationals. Whenever I or anyone else states this, it is automatically dismissed as sentimental tripe or a leftist trick to extinguish the Celtic race, etc…
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I'd argue that it likely has the highest concentration of Africans in the whole country, and funnily, while the native underclass and the African imports live alongside of each-other, I see little mixing.
“The native underclass”… oh Tom you do have a way with words 😂
Can it really come as a surprise to you that nobody wants anything to do with someone who regards themselves as superior to other people? That’s an inherent part of any cultural group, that they make themselves out to be superior in some way in an attempt to mark themselves out as an exclusive group superior to other groups in society. It’s multiculturalism 101, based upon a few different indicators of culture.
There would be little mixing going on, but I don’t know why you would expect there should be any in the first place, certainly not when you’re not prepared to make any effort to mix with either the native underclass, or African immigrants who aren’t refugees who are entitled to live wherever they can afford, which generally happens to be in the poorest areas in cities where they have access to schools, public transport, shops and the infrastructure tends to be better than it is in rural areas.
Yeahhh, that’s worked out really well for French society, hasn’t it? As it happens, we do have a secular education system in Ireland. It’s just not as extreme as the French education system which prioritises the idea of a French national identity above all other identities. It would be impossible for Ireland to achieve anything even close to the French system when the Irish language is taught as poorly as it is already in Irish schools.
There’s no need to imagine being on a low income and having no choice but to send your daughter to an Islamic school because it’s the closest school, or to an Educate Together school because it’s the closest school, or to a Catholic or Protestant school because it’s the closest school, etc, because in Ireland parents cannot be forced to enroll their children in any particular type of school -
3.1 The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
You appear to be overlooking the fact that as Tom so astutely observed earlier, people tend to gravitate towards people they share values in common with, and that includes immigrants from Africa, the vast majority of whom are some denomination of Christianity, as opposed to immigrants of Middle Eastern and Asian origin, who are predominantly Muslim, Hindi or one of the other many minority religions, let alone the great numbers of people who practice syncretism as a distinct community amongst themselves, observed behaviour which is commonly influenced by multiculturalism.
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What makes you think you contributed more or had a less negative impact on the countries that hosted you compared to the scope of immigrants coming to Ireland?
Well, that's quite a leap from your previous posts.
Honestly, I don't believe that my "impact" had either a positive or negative effect on the countries that I worked in. Oh, on the local level, there was some degree of positive influence, as a lecturer encouraging others in their majors.. but the idea that my presence was enough to change that country? haha. You've got to be joking.
We're talking about macro issues here. Not individual contributions. It's one of the reasons that the articles that DaCor kept flooding the thread with were so useless... because it is the influence of a cultural or ethnic group in the macro sense that matters. And to be brutally honest, in my own experience, most westerners acted horribly abroad, and provided little in the way of positive impact on their host nations culture. Individually, some were great representatives of their respective nationalities, but overall? nope.
Are you that much more productive, or did you realize you needed to reintegrate your homeland because you had missed opportunities through lack or fulfillment or else?
So, we're moving away from talking about issues in general, and instead you've decided to move to my personal experiences? Why? Surely, if you believed so strongly in your previous posts, you would be able to adequately explain them, rather than deflecting to talking about me...
Your sentence doesn't make sense. There's two very different points within it. Am I that much more productive? In what sense? You're being entirely too vague. And reintegrate my homeland? What does that mean? Oh, I understand the comment about opportunities and a lack of fulfillment... but that's a rather sloppy attempt at some kind of dig.
I left Ireland due to the Banking crash. I returned to Ireland initially for a two week holiday, but ended up staying to take care of my parents during Covid. I have not decided whether I will remain in Ireland, or go back abroad... although I'm leaning heavily towards going back abroad, because Ireland is just too damn expensive for what you get in return. And likely to get more expensive over the next few years, with even less being returned for what is paid in taxes, and other costs.
Mind you, I don’t get those who give a wholesale picture of disappointment for Ireland, and they tend to be the same.
I have no idea why you've decided to assign this to me. I think Ireland is a wonderful country. It used to be better, but it's still a great country. Which is why I would like to see it protected.. and not driven into the **** by short-term, badly thought-out, emotionally driven nonsense.
I loved Ireland when it was more mono-cultural but am much more amenable to what I consider an improved version, one with better opportunities and a wider offer of goods and services that results from the presence of extra-nationals. Whenever I or anyone else states this, it is automatically dismissed as sentimental tripe or a leftist trick to extinguish the Celtic race, etc…
I suspect that you're close to my age or younger. Wibbs is likely the only poster on the thread who remembers Ireland as a mono-culture (Unless you're from Connemara, or West Kerry). I'm from the midlands, and we had Chinese, Africans, etc in my hometown in the 70s/80s, so this idea that Ireland had any kind of mono-culture in recent times is pure horseshite. If anything I suspect integration back then was far more successful than it is today.. God knows, people (Irish and foreigners) were certainly more open and friendlier to strangers.
As for the offer of a wider range of goods and services, it is rubbish, because such products were available without being dependent on an ever increasing foreign population. As I said, we've had foreigners here for decades.. before multiculturalism was being pushed, in fact. And we had access to those products and services. The primary shift in access to foreign goods has come from the availability of the internet, and delivery services... and has never been dependent on the foreign population here. If anything, you can thank the Irish who returned to Ireland from living abroad, for wanting foreign products here, rather than miss what they experienced abroad.
I've no idea how it could be dismissed as sentimental tripe, although I can understand the claim that it was sentimental being dismissed... because it's revisionism. Looking back at the way Ireland was, and changing it to suit a particular narrative. It's the same way that the claims about mono-culture come up every so often... the only posters talking about it, are the pro-immigration crowd. Those critical of multiculturalism understand that it's been a very long time since anywhere had a mono-culture. The difference is having a dominant culture. But then, nuance is rather awkward for many posters these days.
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@[Deleted User] fair warning, this post contains a url to another website
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You'd have to hope the govt can address some of the accommodation issues sooner rather than later
One prime example below.
Sligo refugee family shows resources are stretched to limit
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I remember reading that the biggest ethnic groups in the 80’s in Ireland were the Italians and the Chinese, both numbered in the single thousands, maybe 7 or 8 thousand per.
To say that immigrants have nothing to do about new products is not only disingenuous but a lie.
Where is the rule book that states you cannot speak to nuances, particulars.
If we are talking about contributions, what is the point of branding an ethnicity as a group of ne’er do wells or taking one member of a foreign community as indistinguishable from the mass. The truth about the outcome is in the aggregate of particular people.
I would venture to say the same about the Irish whether at home or abroad, and even those of us who sadly fall under the mixed category. Poor me.
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I find it odd how some Irish people seem to have inherited colonial guilt despite being colonised for a millenia and having our culture and language almost wiped out. Irish people did not play any part in the Atlantic slave trade (and we were actually indentured servants in the Caribbean), We didn't take part in the crusades, we did not invade any country. In the woke playbook, we should get major victim points. I blame American media for implanting this guilt.
We owe nothing to the less developed parts of the world in terms of sharing our resources, For christs sake we only recently got our own house in order.
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True, and the advocacy that we should as we will probably have to, sell our wellbeing down the river / swamp to facilitate plans by what are in diplomatic terms, traitors as regards the health and wellbeing of Irish people…
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I’m guessing you’re not a parent - the reality in this country is that if you’re not well off your kid goes to the nearest school. The school bus system enforces that, and time constraints with travelling to work enforce that. So your nice quote in bold is all very well in theory, reality is different.
And yes it has worked out well for the French, they would have full on Madrasas otherwise. It would be the single best thing we could do for this country’s future - and I would say that equally for all religions, they have no place in schools.
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But no one seems to suggest that non European Muslims need to feel guilty about the crimes, colonialism and plundering and generally bad influence of the Otoman Empire.
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I remember reading that the biggest ethnic groups in the 80’s in Ireland were the Italians and the Chinese, both numbered in the single thousands, maybe 7 or 8 thousand per.
I didn't claim otherwise. In fact, I have no idea how many there were, probably it wasn't an important issue for most Irish people to talk about, or RTE to devote TV time to.
So, what's your point? Cause you haven't made one.
To say that immigrants have nothing to do about new products is not only disingenuous but a lie.
call pot kettle black. I didn't say that immigrants have nothing to do with new products. Not even slightly... and you have the gall to call it a lie?
You really are such a dishonest poster.
Where is the rule book that states you cannot speak to nuances, particulars.
If we are talking about contributions, what is the point of branding an ethnicity as a group of ne’er do wells or taking one member of a foreign community as indistinguishable from the mass. The truth about the outcome is in the aggregate of particular people.
I would venture to say the same about the Irish whether at home or abroad, and even those of us who sadly fall under the mixed category. Poor me.
Meh. More of the same. You're simply unable to deal with anything remotely subtle. Everything has to be as obvious as possible, and even then, you'll go out of your way to misrepresent. Utterly bizarre.
"If we are talking about contributions..." who posed the question? Not me. And so far, I'm the only one who has contributed anything of substance to such a question, whereas you've dodged your own question. Awesome... impressive that you think adults wouldn't notice.
Yeah.. I'm done. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and replied to you with a serious answer.. and what did you respond with? accusations, misdirection's, and more vague nonsense, even to the point of countering your own points yourself.
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I'm not that old. 😁 Early 50's, so I remember Chinese, Italians and Middle Easterners around alright in the 80's, though they were small in number even in Dublin and with very few Africans and Indians about. Multiculturalism Euro style is really the child of the 90's and the promotion of it the child of the 00's. And Ireland wasn't a mono culture as far as influences go. England was the obvious influence and America, though the latter has grown over the last few decades. You can even see that in accents. Where once the "posh" Irish accent looked to middle England latterly it looks to the mid Atlantic, if not further west. Our two biggest national external influences(three if you include the Vatican) of the last century and down to today didn't require large numbers of actual English and American people moving here. If anything Ireland is a good example of a culture with external cultural influences changing the "native" culture without requiring movements of people to do it.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you being ancient. 😂 Just that you'd be a decade or so older than me, and would remember what the early 70s were like.
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