US Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade

Cordell · 03-05-2022 12:39pm

It's time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives.

The exact same happened here and it was cause for celebration. Please explain why is it so wrong for the same to be done in the US and to have this issue decided democratically by the elected representatives.

For the record, I'm 100% pro choice, but I also recognize that the choice means choosing to terminate a potential human being.

ancapailldorcha · 03-05-2022 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009313#Comment_119009313

I'm specifically talking about the conservative response to school shootings which is always to shut down any debate about firearm rights than to prevent any re-occurrences of this tragedies. The second amendment is what it is but other countries allow citizens to own guns without gunning down children.

Mad_maxx · 03-05-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009198#Comment_119009198

You're whatabouterry aside ,why benchmark against bad behaviour?

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 12:44pm

The Majority of Americans think Abortion should be legal in most cases - roughly 60% with little variation between Men and Women or across most demographic profiles.

It's only when you get to the Religious grouping that you start to see big differences.

Unsurprisingly , White Evangelicals are the ONLY Demographic group with a majority wanting to ban Abortions in almost all cases.

Non-Evangelical Protestants were in line with the rest of the groups in their views..

The only other group to even get close to supporting a ban on Abortion are those with a high-school or lower Education.

They are the group driving this , absolutely no one else.

Even in the GOP they are the outlier

From the above in 2021 about 70% (54% for some and 15% for all) of GOP were supportive of Abortion in some or all cases.

White Evangelicals represent about 14% of the US population yet they are driving the Political agenda for the GOP.

ohnonotgmail · 03-05-2022 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009326#Comment_119009326

your analogy is irrelevant. what is relevant is what is actually happening which is the religious right wanting to remove healthcare from women. that is what is happening. that is the topic.

is_that_so · 03-05-2022 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009333#Comment_119009333

Because of the dysfunctional state of selecting elected representatives in the US. A country of that size can't really justify a primitive binary us or them system.

Ours just says we can legislate - "Provision may be made by law" and in general our legislature support that concept. We have issues with our 75 year old version, yet the US persist with a 250-year-old one.

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009363#Comment_119009363

Make it about religion if that is your actual agenda. The actual extreme religious people will only be too happy for you to help them drag it in that direction because it will galvanise their support for what they want. If you want to help them, that is your prerogative.

If your intention is instead to protect and restore rights then you can focus on biology and health and welfare and human rights in general. That is what I would do. I wouldn't want it to be sidetracked from there. There is enough there to "win" comfortably.

My guess is that you can understand the point in relation to my Muslim analogy, but refuse to acknowledge it generally. Because you still just want to be able to use the topic to get a dig at some other religion.

Faugheen · 03-05-2022 1:00pm

https://twitter.com/sawyerhackett/status/1521301392241082370?s=21&t=io_1DyWpHfew0XfZgpBnQQ

And some people here support this. Being raped by a family member and they can’t get medical help.

Vile, evil bastards in the US.

Igotadose · 03-05-2022 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009310#Comment_119009310

Totally agree regarding RBG. If there's someone to blame, it's her. But, she's dead and replaced by the Handmaid.

WRT to the Dems screwing up, this is down to state-level politics and the influence of the Evangeliban and the RCC at the state level. Unfortunately, without a constitutional amendment enshrining health care, and abortion as health care for women, this is the problem. The Dems at least make an effort where they can and have a political majority. Unfortunately the god botherers are good at organizing and using women's suffering as a way to bankroll their politics.

Cordell · 03-05-2022 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009372#Comment_119009372

Then they need to fix the dysfunctional state and not use the constitution to bypass it - which actually makes things even worse.

Theirs just doesn't say anything so "provisions may be made by law" in their case too.

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009393#Comment_119009393

I wouldn't disagree with you at all that the focus should be on Health and Welfare. Religion has absolutely no place in law anywhere.

However , it is an absolute fact that the drive for changes to the law in the US around limiting Abortion is coming exclusively from the White Evangelical Conservatives , that's not up for debate.

The Evangelicals are a very strong unified voting "bloc" and as such hold significant power among the GOP , particularly at State level which is why the US finds itself where it is today.

They (the Evangelicals) do not want Abortion under any circumstances and do not care about any other arguments to the contrary. They are a wealthy, powerful focused collective and are exerting a massively disproportionate influence over the legislative intentions of the GOP due to their ability to influence Primaries etc.

As I showed in my earlier post , they are the only group that want Roe vs. Wade overturned and look like they might be very close to achieving that goal despite the fact that they represent only 14% of the US population and their views are substantially at odds with the other 86% of the population.

This has never been an argument about State vs. Federal rights etc. , that is a stalking horse, this is about banning Abortion, end of story.

I can absolutely guarantee that if they manage to over-turn Roe vs. Wade their focus will then shift to seeing how they can drive for a Federal ban.

That will be a much harder task , but they have shown that they are in this for the long term.

Having said that , time is running out for them as the numbers of people identifying as White Evangelicals is declining rapidly - They've dropped from 23% of the population in 2006 to only 14% in 2021 , which is a huge decline. So I expect them to go all out if they get Roe vs. Wade killed.

wench · 03-05-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009444#Comment_119009444

RBG stepping down wouldn't necessarily have helped - Obama did have a vacancy on the court, but McConnell wouldn't allow a vote to fill it.

NUTLEY BOY · 03-05-2022 1:12pm

Calm down - the leaked document appears to be a working draft.

The actual opinion issued by SCOTUS may be quite different.

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009462#Comment_119009462

Hi Quin,

The issue is about Health and Welfare. There is no need, and no benefit, to trying to fight it by attacking someone else's internal reasons for supporting it. You can't win that argument. All you are doing is giving them "home advantage".

You can only win an argument on objective reasoning. You cannot defeat someone else's subjective reasons if they are strongly enough held and somewhat irrational to begin with.

I'll ask "what is the point" of making it about religion? Do you think you are going to make that Evangelical publicly change their mind? That isn't realistically going to happen. If you attack them and sneer at them, all you will do is galvanise them as a group, and bring some borderline support back across the line to them. As I said above, make it about that and you give them "home advantage".

Your previous post might be helpful in that regard as it shows Catholics to be majority in favour of allowing access to abortion. Most of the anti-religion posters tend to be bigoted mainly towards Catholics. So that fact might shut them up for a while.

Igotadose · 03-05-2022 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009473#Comment_119009473

She had opportunity to step down in 2008-2010 when her replacement would've been easily confirmed. She'd already had a few bouts with cancer by then. Certainly if she'd stepped down at the beginning of Obama's second term she would've been confirmed.

Term limits for these zombies. No one should be on the Court if they're 70 or older ffs. At least Breyer had the decency to resign before he became completely gaga. Unlike Thomas or Alito.

rossie1977 · 03-05-2022 1:21pm

If you think Republicans are stopping at abortion you might be in for a shock.

Next on chopping board will be interracial and gay marriage and contraception. Many have been very vocal on getting Griswold vs Connecticut overturned https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-03-31/supreme-court-right-to-contraception-same-sex-interracial-marriage

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009487#Comment_119009487

The "argument" phase is long over to be honest.

The discussion should be about not allowing a single grouping that represent a fraction of the total population to drive the national agenda on any Topic , let alone one as emotive and important as Abortion legislation.

Nonsense like the Filibuster and the rule requiring 2/3rds of States to support constitutional changes etc. are why the US is such a constant battle-ground on these issues. It just empowers minority positions.

These types of group would find it impossible to have this level of influence in any other country. The bizarre, arcane and frankly wildly undemocratic electoral & legislative system in the US has enabled and facilitated fringe groups wielding power far outside their true levels of influence and support.

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009537#Comment_119009537

Well take a stab at that question then - what is the point of attacking them as a group, sneering at and denigrating them as a group. Do you think that that will help them to change their minds? The system they have is the one they have to work with.

Or would it be better to focus on the health and welfare aspects and not bother about religion?

Getting rid of groupings of people of particular religions has been tried in the past. You can't do that.

RobbieTheRobber · 03-05-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009487#Comment_119009487

Are you suggesting objectively reasoning with someone about an opinion they hold that they did not reach through objective reasoning?

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009602#Comment_119009602

Nope.

I'm suggestion you don't get dragged into those arguments and stick with the objective ones like Health and Welfare and human rights.

If a minority want to scream from the corner about what their conman tele-evangelist tells them, leave them in the corner screaming away.

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009570#Comment_119009570

Focusing on Health and Welfare isn't going to change their minds either.

The focus should not be on Roe vs. Wade specifically , but on the reasons why a SCOTUS ruling carries such importance - Or indeed why the SCOTUS matters so much in the US at all.

In no other country does the Supreme court (or its equivalent) hold anything like the influence that the US one does.

The legislative process is utterly hamstrung by a few "Bad Actors" because of things like the filibuster etc. so the US Congress passes hardly any real legislation and they are reliant on rulings and interpretations by the Supreme court for far far too many things.

Remove the Filibuster and the US could have passed Federal laws on Gun control , Abortion , Gay Marriage and many more decades ago.

They could have changed back and forth as well , but that's how a Democracy is supposed to work.

Equally, removing the 2/3rds State requirements for Constitutional changes would do wonders for the US Legislative process.

People would actually have to cater to consensus rather than thrive on division and fringe opinions.

It's a broken system leading to broken outcomes.

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009609#Comment_119009609

In every country that derived its legal system from the Common Law, the Supreme Court (or equivalent) will be second only to the Constitution (if there is one). The US Supreme Court cannot change the Constitution - it can only interpret it (and laws) to make decisions and it generally takes a historical interpretation of the Constitution.

The US Constitution can be amended - although it is not as straightforward as it is here to do so so it doesn't happen very often over there.

In Ireland, the ultimate authority is the people. But that is reflected via the Constitution. The people can amend that Constitution.

MrMusician18 · 03-05-2022 1:44pm

I have to say, how this story has been covered here this morning has been really interesting. It's largely focussed on the detail of the likely ruling, with curtailment of abortion in many states resulting. While this is interesting, it's not the reason why this is a relevant story here: which is more to do with the stability of the American political system rather than potential changes in American law which are ultimately unimportant to an Irish audience.

You wouldn't know that though listening to the coverage in Ireland. The Americanisation of everything and the need to participate in these issues that affect only America seems to trump everything, even informing us the reason why this could be impactful here

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009633#Comment_119009633

Exactly my point , it is the ridiculous barriers to legislative and constitutional change in the US that make the SCOTUS unduly impactful.

Here (and in almost every other country), if the Supreme Court issues a ruling , the government can pretty quickly update the law of the land to reflect that ruling and everything is appropriately codified.

They can equally hold a referendum to update the Constitution if the ruling indicates that is necessary and again they can get things ratified and locked down in fairly short order.

In the US both of the above are extremely difficult if not impossible to do

The Roe vs. Wade ruling happened 49 years ago and no one has managed to pass a Federal law or Constitutional amendment to codify it since, as a result of the Filibuster and other legislative barriers to change.

THAT is the problem here , the fact that there are countless Supreme court rulings that have not had the appropriate and frankly necessary legislative/constitutional updates made because the US system is nonsense.

Donald Trump · 03-05-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009680#Comment_119009680

The SC here can equally strike down any legislation as being Unconstitutional (or prevent it from being promulgated in the first place if it finds it to be unconstitutional after being referred by the President under Article 26).

In the US, the system they have is what they have to work with it. Changing that system is not a practical proposal to anything urgent.

Quin_Dub · 03-05-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009720#Comment_119009720

Of course they can , but it is the speed and efficacy of the ability of the Legislative branch that is the problem here.

The US system IS the problem and perhaps the loss of Roe vs. Wade might actually focus the minds of people to drive through the necessary changes to fix the issues.

Honestly , there's nothing "quick" that they can do to stop the decision is that is what is going to happen beyond perhaps removing the filibuster and making it federal law before SCOTUS confirms the decision.

This certainly will make the mid-terms more than interesting..

It's likely that this will become a central issue which might be good for the Democrats

AllForIt · 03-05-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008462#Comment_119008462

Wouldn't they make a lot more money if they were in charge of issuing licences to private abortion clinics?

03-05-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009480#Comment_119009480

It's highly unlikely to change is thing

ohnonotgmail · 03-05-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009846#Comment_119009846

The religious right are funding this. they have no interest in making money from abortions and neither will the politicians they fund.

is_that_so · 03-05-2022 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009458#Comment_119009458

What's on the bench is blatantly political and barely nominally detached from the system and you can't expect political rodents to fix a system that works so well for them. Roe v Wade is not in their Constitution, the right to privacy is and that's what the decision relates to.

US Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade

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